Episode 67 - Harmony in Hardship: Exploring Vulnerability in Modern Manhood - Dxtr Spits

In this conversation, Kevin Davis interviews Dxtr Spitz about men, masculinity, vulnerability, and mental health. Dxtr shares his background as a material science engineer and a lyricist, and how he integrates both sides of his brain. He discusses his work in men's retreats and creating spaces for men to connect and explore their emotions. Dxtr emphasizes the importance of mindfulness and active meditation in his approach. They also discuss the challenges of expressing vulnerability and the effects of information overload and phone usage on human connection. 

In this conversation, Dxtr Spits and Kevin Davis discuss the importance of creating space for disconnecting from technology and finding quiet time. They explore the power of asking meaningful questions to gain clarity and perspective. They also delve into the illusion of needing more and the importance of redefining success. The conversation highlights the value of prioritizing time and energy and the impact of a connected society on meaningful connections. They emphasize the need for men to seek help and support, and the strength in asking for help.

Takeaways

Creating a safe and welcoming space is crucial for men to explore their emotions and connect with others.
Mindfulness and active meditation can help men become more present and in touch with their emotions.
The traditional approach to masculinity often neglects the importance of emotional expression and connection.
Information overload and excessive phone usage can hinder genuine human connection and contribute to stress and anxiety. Create space for disconnecting from technology to improve well-being and productivity.
Ask meaningful questions to gain clarity and perspective on life and priorities.
Redefine success beyond external achievements and focus on internal worth.
Prioritize time and energy to be present in relationships and meaningful activities.
Seek help and support when needed, and recognize the strength in asking for help.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Technical Difficulties
02:26 Background and Introduction of Dexter Spitz
04:21 Dexter's Background and Dual Mind
06:13 Dexter's Work with Men's Masculinity
07:14 Traditional Approach to Masculinity
08:37 Dexter's Approach to Men's Healing
10:27 Active Meditation and Mindfulness
12:43 Complexity of Men's Emotions
13:09 Challenges of Expressing Vulnerability
14:27 Creating a Welcoming Space for Men
19:03 Importance of Genuine Conversations
20:40 Effects of Information Overload
22:04 Disconnecting from Electronics
23:30 Curated Extremes and Strife
25:37 Lack of Human Connection
26:10 Negative Effects of Phone Usage
26:29 Creating Space for Disconnecting
28:07 Asking Meaningful Questions
28:33 Finding Quiet Time
29:52 Questioning What Really Matters
31:13 Redefining Success
32:06 The Illusion of Needing More
33:01 Valuing Internal Worth
34:28 The Pursuit of Happiness
35:10 Defining Identity Beyond Job Titles
36:26 Prioritizing Time and Energy
37:12 The Loneliness of a Connected Society
38:02 Creating Meaningful Connections
39:43 The Importance of Being Present
40:40 The Lost Art of Real-Life Conversations
42:25 Finding Community and Support
45:24 Seeking Help and Resources
47:04 Strength in Asking for Help

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Transcript

0:00
Welcome to maxed out man helping you
0:06
become the man you were made to be hey guys this Kevin Davis from the
0:11
max out man podcast today I'm going to be here with Dexter Spitz and I'm super excited to have this conversation before
0:17
we get started don't forget to go to MaxOut man.com you can check out our memberships our courses our challenges
0:23
that we do and all sorts of different things also hit us up on social media we're on all the platforms is maxed out
0:29
man uh or maxed out man course Dexter was raised in Prince George's County
0:34
Maryland his curious mind led him to become a jack of all trades as a scientist entrepreneur musician spoken
0:40
World art artist and entrepreneur he relocated to Chicago in 2014 after
0:46
graduating from Virginia Tech where he got his degree as a material science engineer and met his mentor Dr Nikki
0:53
javani he began the pursuit of his performance career as Dexter Spitz a witty impactful and energized lyricist
1:00
his motto is live life like an experiment you cannot control what happens to you but you can control the
1:06
product you become super cool uh he explores experimental themes and his multi-sensory performances can't wait to
1:12
hear more about that uh his AC capella spoking spoken word and Keynotes have brought crowds to tears while teaching
1:19
inspirational deep life lessons he most recently launched his movement called how men cry uh which is changing the
1:26
narrative around men's relationship to vulnerability and mental health with the intention of making compassion
1:33
contagious big long bio super cool uh I'm super excited for you to be here um
1:40
you know it's one of those interesting things right like typic and I tend to be a little bit this way which is you know
1:46
you either have kind of this science brainy nerd mind or you you have a you
1:51
have more of the creative side um I would not call myself a guitarist but I
1:58
play guitar um and so I tend to have and write poetry and those kind of things as I was growing up and so I kind of tend
2:05
to be that way too but it's super interesting that you're like this materials engineer and this Lyricist on
2:11
the same on the same thing but hey if you don't mind would you just go through and kind of give us more of your
2:16
background and how you got here and what it is that you do and then I just want to have a conversation about men masculinity vulnerability all that yeah
2:25
sure so um it is funny uh part of I think why I kept that dual mind so
Background and Introduction of Dexter Spitz
2:31
active is because half of the time even when I was going through school studying nerdy stuff I was still uh writing music
2:39
and lyrics Right alongside of a lot of my my notes so I think you know in some
2:44
type of way I kept flexing both both of those uh sides of the brain pretty often uh that makes us have multiple
2:50
personality disorder yeah it's like always always switching you know switching uh gears
2:58
but yeah a lot of what I do you know today um I still do some uh work in stem
3:03
although I'm looking to have the work that I'm doing with men's uh masculinity kind of be at the at the Forefront of
3:09
what I do and uh you know basically I do a combination of speaking where I'll mix
3:16
in uh spoken word material meditation and mindfulness practices journaling
3:22
Reflections um so I kind of do that for companies programs entities whoever you
3:27
know kind of brings us brings us in and then on the flip side of that I actually run a lot of uh men's Retreats where you
3:35
know I'll do so locally bringing the other guys and really similar ways we tend to um go out into nature if I can
3:42
get them out to to go hike or something or or camp and other things and um you
3:47
know just kind of I think that a lot of men's healing is going to happen within uh community and and and it may look a
3:53
little different than um maybe how we've tried to pitch it out into the the the
3:58
world so I just try to bring guys together to just be be together and to
4:04
to chill comfortably and um a lot of the conversations of what's going on deeper and you know kind of rise to the the
4:11
surface without having to to force it too much uh so I kind of I spend most of my time kind of building out things
4:17
amongst uh releasing projects with my my own art whether that be music uh spoken
Dexter's Background and Dual Mind
4:22
word and whatnot picking up shows all that all that type of stuff so so you still you just you just do it all right
4:29
like that's the kind of and and that's cool to be able to have both of those sides and be able to integrate everything together you made the point
4:36
you know what what we normally see in the masculinity space and what men are supposed to do to heal and connect
4:41
versus what you do can you just kind of walk through like what is the traditional way that we handle that and
4:47
then what kind of things are you doing differently to kind of help men in that new
4:52
way yeah think I'm like how much time do you have this we have all the time in
4:58
the world man go ahead well I'll I I'll stick to the extremes
5:04
there are a lot in but I think maybe some of the original ways that we looked at masculinity is okay you need to be a
5:11
man you need to fit in this particular role in this particular box you need to be a provider in this type of way and um
5:18
you know we're gonna kind of um Force this learning into you that you always
5:24
must be strong always must be this and I'm not even necessarily against the
5:29
idea of having men become better providers more responsible other stuff like that I have no no problem with that
5:36
um but I think it has been missing a really big piece of okay but how do you
5:42
actually talk about what's going on internally to be in close relationship with the people that you love around you
5:48
then I think sometimes we can go too far on the other side where it's just kind of like okay let's rip rip away all the
5:55
masculinity that we have and decode this and break down this which again I think has has utility at times to really look
6:02
at some of the sub pieces of uh I would say how social uh conditioning has you
6:09
know really really really pushed the ideas of uh manhood so what I try to
Dexter's Work with Men's Masculinity
6:15
do ironically I don't talk that much about masculinity in the actual men's
6:21
Retreats and works that I do I think it's relatively it's kind of like a thing of if I say oh go and Define God
6:29
that's going to mean something entirely different to some people or mean nothing at all to others right so I think even
6:35
just to come in with well masculinity with all my ideas and my inputs kind of
6:40
does it a disservice so what I try to do is um provide guys it's going to bother me my hoodie string was was CAU there um
6:49
so what I try to do is provide just simply a space for men to feel welcome
6:56
enough and I try to provide some slowness like a lot of the times we do
7:02
things with silence so for instance when we go out to hike in nature I'll have guys hike and silence for quite a bit of
7:08
time and I'll ask pointed questions during that hike uh to allow us to just
Traditional Approach to Masculinity
7:14
have that moment of peace and space to connect with what's going on internally before even trying to say let me just
7:20
force you to talk about what's what's going on right um and there's a lot a lot of healing that I think comes from
7:26
nature and then I also worked to bring in components of mindfulness and
7:32
movement um as well some of that being hiking or things like yoga Etc to also
7:38
again allow guys to connect more with the self and then we more slowly work
7:43
our way into okay well let's buddy up and maybe have some conversations or how did you respond to some of those pointed
7:49
questions or uh you know what are some of the ideas that maybe you came in here with of how you thought this was going
7:56
to be and what's happening now so just a lot more curiosity opposed to trying to tell people how
8:02
they need to be within a space if that makes sense yeah that does and I think that's interesting because it's almost
8:08
like active meditation right like versus versus sitting sitting there you know on your you know with your legs crossed and
8:15
all that because hiking like for me personally anytime I sit still my brain
8:22
my brain just never shuts off I just it's that way but like sometimes if I'm doing something active like you're
8:28
describing doing hiking then I can be more uh contemplative I think yeah
8:34
totally and part of and that's that's one of the things one of the the things I like to debunk around meditation and
Dexter's Approach to Men's Healing
8:40
mindfulness in general is that you're not going to shut the mind off it is doing its job right it's looking we're
8:46
talking about hiking and stuff your mind is looking for the Tiger in the woods it's looking for the danger essentially
8:53
and it's always going to be pulling itself into this busyness and maybe
8:58
somebody is ass super you know super familiar with mindfulness and meditation and they can sink right into let me be
9:05
present and see exactly how I feel and pro but the you know the average individual if we're not introduced to
9:10
that or even if we are who's to say that somebody's in a space where that
9:15
particular day you know they're able to just process so I try to I try to break down um some of
9:25
the just it's it's kind of funny I just I kind of just make get a little more chill it's not even that crazy of a of a
9:33
concept it's just backing off because we have so much input and so much pressure and what I've come to find is with that
9:39
approach when people really feel safe and they have the time to be mindful and
9:45
it's not forced upon them the information flows out you know yeah I like that because it's you know the joke
9:51
I think around men is like we're not we're we're not that complicated right
9:57
like but you know so you know because usually it's in contrast to women right
10:03
I you know there you know I've heard different people say you know women have on average something like 40,000 words
10:10
you know that they speak in a given day and men have like 4,000 it's it's like by the end of the day it's not that I
10:15
don't want to talk to you I just used up all my words already
10:20
but but the joke is that they really isn't that much going on but I think that the reality is there is so much
Active Meditation and Mindfulness
10:28
going on all the time that getting into that space is is can be pretty difficult
10:34
for us absolutely and and I would say it's it's it hasn't always historically
10:40
been welcomed I think either to get into that space so [Music]
10:47
maybe where I think there is some hypocrisy for what we ask for from men
10:52
sometimes is we want the vulnerability we want these shows of hey can we talk more about our emotions but historically
11:00
and within Society it's not even always true that when those things are shown from men that they are received
11:07
welcoming sometimes there's punishment on the side of even expressing those things and then it's and who knows you
11:15
know it could be biological and can it could be all social it could be whatever it is but we're not opening up as much
11:21
in our circles or in our friend groups or other things too so we also don't flex that muscle as as often for
11:29
whatever reason I'm like at this point in the game I'm like I don't even care about why people are doing the things
11:35
okay we're doing it so let's just figure that part out you know it's like but um
11:41
so yeah if we're just um I totally agree that there is so much going on in
11:47
internally that I think the approach just has to be really deliberate and kind of like subtle and then welcoming
11:53
to say maybe you don't talk about these things regularly in Life or feel like you have you know the space to be able
11:59
to do so so how can we kind of gently get there opposed to trying to like force it out of people yeah I like that
12:07
idea of doing it gently be and because in a lot of ways it's like oh well if I'm gonna go do this mindful when I hear
12:13
the words mindfulness and introspection and all that kind of stuff it it gets into that what I call the woowoo land
12:20
you know it's like it fair enough you know it's like next time you know when did the crystals come out and all that
12:26
you know all that stuff which is not bad like it because then it then it makes it seem like it's not okay to actually have
12:32
some of this have some of that deep introspection you know necessarily yeah and and part of one of
12:40
the ways that I teach something as simple as mindfulness we could even try it right here so like raise one of your
Complexity of Men's Emotions
12:47
hands like yeah and then bring it down and then raise your hand again and
12:54
then bring it down and then bring your attention to your hand
12:59
okay and now raise your hand and bring it down what was
13:06
different when I said bring your attention to your hand if it has it it was weightier not not heavier but like I it
Challenges of Expressing Vulnerability
13:14
actually I and it's really weird to even say that but like I can feel my hand
13:19
more than I did initially yeah so when I would so there's a lot of ways to look
13:26
at meditation and mindfulness but that's one of the things that I would say is just being more Mindful and present
13:32
within the moment right it's just that amount of attention of oh actually I feel where my body is I feel where my
13:39
mind is I feel where filling the blank you know is just a little more presently
13:44
maybe it's with our breathing maybe it's you know just all of those things where in the busy societies that we're in we
13:51
push a lot of that to the side you know so it's and that's part of why I don't
13:56
try to put so much information out that then it becomes off-putting because I I
14:03
kind of agree with you like so many words have so much weight to them that maybe has nothing to do with how I would
14:10
intend it so if I say you know meditation mindfulness to one person it means this to one person it means
14:16
something else to another person it's you know this is against my religion this is against my I mean it can be anything so I think it's uh I think
14:22
language is important but I also think it's it's important to understand um what the main goal is which is just
Creating a Welcoming Space for Men
14:29
trying to get people to open more more uh comfortably so yeah I I've spent most
14:35
of my life as a conservative Evangelical Christian right so when you say meditation in some of the circles I'm in
14:41
they're like wait I don't meditate that's all you know I'm like you know or they'll say I don't meditate but I pray
14:48
and I'm like it's literally it's pretty much the same thing right like and so that language and the
14:55
weightiness around these words gets a little you know it gets a little weird honestly yeah yeah and I think and
15:02
that's part of even what I try to create as well is environments where
15:08
I one of my least favorite things about today in society is that we are very if
15:15
somebody disagrees or has a different opinion or Viewpoint therefore negative
15:21
therefore bad therefore you know all of these things that we put in place and I'm when I look at Humanity as a whole
15:29
it's like that's never going to get us anywhere essentially and we can look at
15:34
where it's getting us now especially within within the United States just how much conflict and everybody afraid to
15:42
say anything or people tearing each other down and I'm more of the mind of like it's all right for people to
15:48
actually disagree if you provide and create a space where the opinions can
15:53
still be respected and and looked into so for instance for the groups that we create I I really try not to have um too
16:01
much parameter around what boxes you need to check to be able to be a part of
16:07
a space you know it's like kind of counter what I'm trying to create so and I think that that makes it more
16:13
interesting and it and and it opens up conversations one of one of the things that's super interesting about doing
16:18
this podcast is I am now having conversations with men and women from across the world that I would probably
16:26
not have an opportunity to have and so like I and I we may I may be
16:32
diametrically opposed you know ideologically politically or whatever
16:37
yeah in terms of like my belief system not necessarily like I'm opposed to them but then to be able to have a a genuine
16:44
conversation about a particular topic whether it's masculinity or Humanity or whatever and have that connection that
16:51
that is so important and I think that that's so much of what we're missing right now yeah I I couldn't I couldn't
16:58
agree more and I think it actually gets in the way of what we would want to see like a lot of what when I'm saying we
17:06
I'm just kind of making the global assumption that people just want to get along right um maybe maybe I I believe
17:13
that a little too much but it's like I think somewhere down deep down people want to get along with with each other
17:20
um but I think yeah there is so much in the way
17:26
right now and I don't think it's all necessarily people's fault where
17:31
also a lot of information is uh introduced to us uh like one of the
17:37
things I talk about is just cell phone use it's like we have more inputs and information put into our mind in a short
17:46
amount of time than what's ever been true in human history and we I don't think we give that enough credit like
17:52
it's like no this isn't just say oh we consume a little bit more media this is
17:59
you are getting thousands and thousands of emotional input and manipulation and even if you agree with the information
18:05
or you don't the volume of it is way higher than than what we've ever seen so
18:10
I think by the time people get face tof face again there's all this information and you know the actual human connection
18:17
part can be can be lacking yeah and used a great term which is manipulation one of the things I've been trying really
18:23
hard on lately is not touching my phone for at least the first 30 minutes of the
18:30
day because your tendency is to wake up get on your phone and then you're and then you're fed you're literally fed
18:36
you're not seeking a lot of this information you're just being fed this information I I firmly believe that to
18:42
your point about connection I think most people and if you look at the political Spectrum in the United States I think
18:48
most people are moderate I think most people like are not extreme there are
18:53
obviously some of those but I think that the extreme sides of both of those is what's being curated for the purpose of
19:00
you know and I'm a capitalist but from the purpose of profiteering and all of that off of that Strife right and so we
Importance of Genuine Conversations
19:08
have to figure out a way to make those connections yeah and I I I would agree because it's it's uh that that is what's
19:14
going to sell the most like emotional um being able to agitate
19:20
someone's state of emotion is going to sell a lot more like if I were to give you a headline that just said
19:28
a dog crossed the street today you're never going to click on that like you're not ever GNA care but if I say dog
19:36
almost gets hit by a car while jumps over this this and that and a building caught on fire you're like what happened
19:43
yeah how do I find out what happened and the more you know emotion and and to
19:49
that point why I bring a lot of our men's retreats in into nature or try to
19:54
have folks connecting with more periods of silence is I have a firm
20:00
understanding that for the it's it's there's a pretty high likelihood that
20:06
you're going to have a lot of input within your life so I'm trying to create a space where you can remove some of
20:12
that input even just for a while uh because I was one of the things that I've um really found from doing a lot of
20:19
camping and hiking and other stuff myself was just the difference I mean the the literal difference internally
20:26
between spending three days in nature with without a phone or being on a Meditation Retreat you know for a week
20:33
long in silence and then you come back into the world and it's just like oh this is actually insane we are bombarded
Effects of Information Overload
20:40
with information yeah my wife um has done these off-road rallies and their navigation rallies no electronics and so
20:48
for for 10 days they're out in the desert and the mountains and all this doing basically you know 10 12 hours a
20:54
day in a vehicle but the the lack of electronics is something that they all
20:59
talk about when they get back and they're they turn their phone on for the first time and just that like the
21:06
anxiety that it creates just having that notification after notification and text
21:11
messages and all you know all of this stuff there was a great commercial probably five or six years ago and I
21:18
think it was like a GMC commercial some pickup and you know it it literally shows the guy checking his signal like
21:25
this whole time and you're thinking okay well he's trying to make sure he has signal but then it shows you know shows
21:31
that no service on the on the screen and he's like okay this is the place where I'm going to park you know to
21:38
Camp yeah so like his whole objective was to get out of service right that's
21:43
that I think we discount that for sure oh yeah totally and this is and actually
21:48
if I can give give an example to of if you were to swap your cell phone okay
21:56
for any other potential item say if we put say if we swapped it to an item that
22:01
we have more of a stigma around as being a negative thing for some people say if
Disconnecting from Electronics
22:06
it was a cigarette right or if it's a bottle or some type of thing if we
22:12
interacted with that material you got your crack pipe I got I got my personal
22:18
crack pipe right here like if you if you interacted with that that as much as any
22:25
other material on the planet we would say this is an this is an issue what's going on we need to do but for whatever
22:31
reason with you know cell phones and social media and media it's we give it we give it a pass and I think that's
22:38
that's kind of part of I don't say it as much in terms of what I what I lead with
22:44
for the spaces that I create but it's definitely a pretty big part of the uh intention behind it is how we create
22:51
some like separation because I because to the to the bigger point I think it pulls us away from our Humanity from the
22:58
St point of like now I might have a thousand opinions about you before ever
23:05
even interacting with you in like any type of way and uh opposed to just hey
23:12
actually go to shake your hand and say hello and have some conversation so and look look me in the eye right like
23:17
having that having that interaction that you don't get and I the the irony does not Escape me that you and I both do not
23:25
have to reach in order to get our phones in our hands right now yeah fair enough
Curated Extremes and Strife
23:31
yeah right yeah that's that that is the yeah Arms Reach a lot of the time yeah
23:37
and so not have like it just it just consumes and honestly that so they've done these studies one of the reasons
23:43
I've been trying not to stay on my I'm not getting on my phone first thing the morning I kind of have the morning routine that I do and yeah um but the
23:50
phone has always been a part of that and they were they've done these studies about cortisol levels and they they
23:56
actually can show that first thing in the morning if you get on your phone it it actually jacks up your cortisol level
24:01
which is your stress hormone and that's not good like you so you're already stressed out before you get out of bed
24:08
yeah I can I can believe it and I'll I'll tell you what I actually do the first part of my evening routine for the
24:16
next day is I literally power my phone off and I take it and I go and I walk it
24:23
and put it in my bathroom in a little treasure chest and it doesn't go come
24:29
back on until my morning you know routine or process is is set in place but that's taken a long time to get to
24:36
the point of realizing the the uh necessity for it and there is a drastic
24:42
difference I can tell you there's a drastic difference between days when I stick to that and days when I don't I
24:48
can feel it you know for sure so yeah that F that's first couple of weeks you were like a crack addict just you're lay
24:55
laying in your bed at 11:00 at night shaking wondering where your f it's it's yeah I mean it's it's pretty
25:02
it's pretty it's pretty intense but it's wild to see how how much how much influence it it has had without you know
25:10
really because I think it's hard to see that input with yeah or the impact
25:15
without without the space from it you know yeah I mean if you take anything away from this episode like I I will I
25:22
think I'm actually going to try that tonight like that's um that's and again
25:27
I may have a heart attack between now and between tonight and tomorrow morning but
25:32
um cuz my whole my whole world my whole business runs on this thing and so but you have to realize that at the end of
Lack of Human Connection
25:39
the day first of all are you really do you really need to be on email at that time of night which you're usually not you're freaking Dome you know Doom
25:46
scrolling through Tik Tock and all of those things and so yeah that's definitely something that I want to try
25:53
for sure when you do these Retreats and you were you mentioned kind of giving these guys uh point questions um and I I
26:00
like to be pretty practical on this podcast if if we can you know when the opportunity arises what kind of
26:06
questions can guys do you know what kind of questions should they be asking themselves and if if you don't have the
Negative Effects of Phone Usage
26:13
opportunity to be out in nature take a walk outside even getting on a treadmill if you live I live in Montana you're in
26:19
Chicago right yeah so like winter time you know it's hard to get outside
26:25
sometimes you know just having that quiet time but what kind of question should we be looking at asking ourselves
Creating Space for Disconnecting
26:30
and kind of contemplating sure I think one really great question to ask that I
26:36
I tend to open with is who are you without giving your job title yeah um so
26:44
that one for sure is is powerful I'm not going to give away too many because you guys got to come to them so but no uh um
26:52
yeah don't give away all your secrets for sure yeah no but other ones um you know a lot of the times I will ask for
26:59
one of the last Retreats we did I was looking at the idea of what is it like to
27:05
really essentially be okay with our lives where they are no matter no matter
27:10
where you are and one of the questions that I'll ask is what is really lacking
27:17
from your life in this moment and then a flip side to that question
27:23
is what what what is it like when I get everything that I feel like I need need
27:29
MH and then a question to tack on the end of that would be who am I when I
27:34
feel like I got everything that I need and that that kind of chain of
27:40
questioning the the reason why I would go with it is because often time we're we're operating
27:48
from a position of lack in some way I just need to get this one thing and then my happiness will start or I need to go
27:54
you know figure out whatever it is and then my happy or I get this Bank count balance and my happiness will start you
28:00
know and I think if we can kind of look in the future a bit or just in the the
Asking Meaningful Questions
28:07
hypothetical space of what do I feel like I really need and say I got it I
28:12
mean we see it all all the time I think it was Jim Cary who said something like I hope that he said something like I
28:18
hope that you get every single thing that you think that you need just so that once you get it you realize that
28:24
it's not it yeah you know and I think um and I think for men in particular to
28:29
kind of to bring it into a lot of the narratives that we have a lot of the times our value is tied to what we
Finding Quiet Time
28:37
produce within the world and I think that that can create a difficult mentality of I never have enough or I've
28:45
never achieved enough to actually be internally valuable and that's what we're trying to trying to flip on its
28:51
head yeah I really like that I um I would I talk about if if money is
28:57
your main objective like when we you know I do a lot of business counseling and business coaching and all that and I always talk about what's your main goal
29:04
well to make a bunch of money I'm like well if that's your goal you will literally never make enough like that's
29:10
you know there because there's always G to be and you know I think as as humans as men especially it's like it's that
29:16
once I statement it's like sure once I make this sale once I pay off this debt
29:22
once I get you know make a million dollars a year what whatever those are
29:27
then I'll be happy yeah and and it's just it's just not true like you're just never and I mean I'm just as guilty of
29:33
that as anybody else but it's finding that contentment in your situation that
29:39
is probably one of the more difficult things to have yeah and I think it's hard I mean
29:47
that's why I have I have mixed feelings even like business-wise and otherwise
Questioning What Really Matters
29:52
I'm okay and enjoy making money or having like what I need to to support
29:58
but then at the end of the day there is the reality that I mean it sounds cliche but you do not leave with it you know
30:04
it's like yeah well they say you never SE never seen a hearse with a U-Haul behind it I I mean seriously it's like
30:11
you're not it's nothing you're going to do and I think one of another question to to ask actually that's come to mind
30:18
and this is one that's come about from uh being within a a a meditation
30:23
Community is is this going to matter on my deathbed is this really going to matter
30:31
on my deathbed and it's a sobering question but we can get into a space of
30:37
this is going to be a far away time from now this is going to be some hypothetical moment we don't really know
30:43
that you know it can be today of us tomorrow it's not you know there is not
30:49
a and it can get really easy in the the fast pace of life to say it it'll be
30:57
when this thing happens or you know I'll spend more time with with the kids as soon as I have fill in the blank or as
31:03
soon as this is done and that's done and it's like that may not ever be true you know it's like so finding that that
31:09
balance around how you want to really spend your your time and energy and I'm not and again I'm not saying this as
Redefining Success
31:15
well as if I have mastered a whole lot of this stuff like
31:20
I can just as easily you know scroll and Bs and waste time and whatnot um but
31:26
it's it's definitely helped in more recent time to be able to ask those questions you know a little uh more
31:32
directly to myself to say okay what what am I really doing here you know yeah the
31:37
the challenge I think is like then does it does anything really matter right like then how do you
31:45
balance like I'm just gonna go sit in the corner for the rest of the day you know but it's it's funny that you bring
31:51
that up I made the statement the other day we're you know we're kind of we're we're in a spot with a couple of our couple of my businesses to where I'm
31:57
like I'm just almost there right to achieving to to achieving some specific
32:02
goals and and I said something to my wife like I I feel like that I I should
The Illusion of Needing More
32:09
be there already and I should and I made the statement I said I feel like I should be more successful and she's like
32:15
what the hell are you talking about in terms of success we've been married for 28 years I have great kids we have a
32:21
great home we you know we have material blessings also and I was like you're
32:27
right like that yeah I I need to put that caveat to say okay I'm talking about this one
32:33
slice of the success you know thing and I have a sign behind me that says you
32:38
know success redefined which is how you define success in a in a holistic Manner
32:44
and uh so yeah that's that's a super difficult kind of thing to navigate yeah and that's and that's
32:50
where I would say for sure in a lot of the ter uh just the conversations around masculinity in in particular I think
32:58
it's what can be challenging because I know for sure for me in a bunch of ways
Valuing Internal Worth
33:04
the idea of success was going to be measured whether it's by you know number
33:11
and bank account position title other things like that which is why I kind of said uh that initial question of who are
33:20
you without your job title because a lot of times if you go and ask men sometimes I'll say oh well who are you and it's
33:27
like well work for some and so or I do this or I do that it's it it is the easy way to kind of quantify things but it's
33:33
like that really doesn't say anything about who you are a person you know it's like it
33:38
really doesn't it doesn't mean anything and and I do agree if you go to the too far extremes right you can just say
33:45
nothing matters and I just lay down in the ground so I don't so I don't think you it has to go to to that extreme but
33:52
for sure being more deliberate around okay have I got gotten to whatever point
33:59
and if there's this really crucial period if it is more time spent if it is more presence within our day if it's
34:06
being more present in somebody's time and need to say okay can I put this to the side or delegate or really take some
34:13
some thoughtful time to be here in in the way that I need to be can I prioritize that because who I mean one
34:20
of the other statements is who is sitting around on their deathbed saying H really wish I sent more of those
34:27
emails I just wish I'd spent more time at work right like wish I spent more time at
The Pursuit of Happiness
34:34
work it's you know but that's it's a hard reality to see because Society wise we also push our sick and our dying and
34:41
our whomever else to the side and we try to you know prioritize
34:47
the I don't know stuff that has a lot of glitter that's that's the best way to put it yeah the shiny the shiny objects
34:54
yeah and I mean I'm being and to your point being deliberate about those that are in your life and how you see success with that I was thinking and
35:01
I've used this example a couple times in different circles but where I'm sitting right now is kind of my quote unquote
35:07
little Studio which is basically just a table my lights and my backdrop but to my right is my actual desk where I work
Defining Identity Beyond Job Titles
35:15
and my chair faces the corner of my office and I have two chairs behind me that my wife comes in to sit whenever
35:21
she wants to talk to me I've been at I've worked for my house for 25 years sure and so I have to be
35:28
intentional to turn that chair around to have the conversation with her versus
35:34
all right I'm talking to you I'm talking to you but I'm looking at my computer so I have that intentionality really makes
35:39
a huge difference for me and for her yeah yeah and that's and that's where uh
35:46
I feel like I've just gotten on a whole Soap Box about us being connected into into I mean that's what we're here yeah
35:53
yeah because I because I think that's part of what has been lost in human connection sometimes like I've been
35:59
reading a lot of books on on uh relationship and even just some of the
36:05
science behind we about how we relate and uh connect with people and some of
36:11
these things and it's kind of amazing that we have some of the most connected Society that's ever happened and some of
36:18
the loneliest people it's you know something isn't isn't in in Balance here
36:25
and I feel it's going to be interesting to watch some of the future generations
Prioritizing Time and Energy
36:31
and close relationship where we've almost like I'm still at at the age where I remember a
36:38
time of not having Internet and then having internet yeah and and that's kind
36:43
of you know and that that's kind of gone and I've seen even just with some youth in general where it's like you're
36:48
hanging out with 10 of your friends and everybody's just like this and it's just like you're not even you're not even
36:56
hanging out with each other so when I think about that apply it to close relationship right um so even in for
37:02
anything within uh like relationship now in my you know dating circumstance and
37:07
stuff the phone is always away for me like it's a major it's a major thing I'll cap work at a certain point and
The Loneliness of a Connected Society
37:14
that's it it's not out you know at dinner it's not out when we're watching TV all that's it's all it's you know
37:20
done so I saw a picture this morning again on social media but I I saw this
37:26
thing where it show this this restaurant actually has a a little lock box at the tables and if you put your phones in
37:33
there and give your key to the the weight waiter or waitress has the key and you get like 10% off your bill if
37:40
you if you're willing to put all your phones in that you get 10% off your bill which I think and I almost think
37:46
connected is the wrong word when we're talking about today's connectivity you
37:51
know there's those movies like standby me and sand lot and all those movies that were you know back in the 50s and
37:58
60s like that was my child when I'm 51 I grew up in a time where we literally left at daylight and we didn't come back
Creating Meaningful Connections
38:05
till it was dark you know that was the rule you had to be back before it was dark but that that we were just
38:11
connected all day long doing stuff like that yeah and now it's like well I have
38:17
my gaming people that I'm connected with like you know they got the headset on and they're doing their online gaming
38:22
and all that which is fine I mean it's kind of a fantasy world but you put those people in real life they don't
38:28
have any idea to have an actual conversation with them yeah yeah yeah it's true and and
38:36
part of part of what I try to do is even outside of Retreats I try to just invite guys to go do things so sometimes it's
38:44
as simple as hey I'm gonna be going for a walk at this time I invite him uh to
38:49
go to the arcade actually I'll tell you a funny story because it's sitting right here I invited a set of guys out to go
38:56
to an arcade just to come hang out to talk wasn't a retreat it's guys who have been to
39:02
previous Retreats and other stuff so I think I'm doing something positive
39:07
because I am doing something positive and I go buy all of these tokens okay
39:12
thinking we're gonna have a game night we're gonna play all these arcade games whatever else I still have a
39:18
whole so many tokens because what they did was they got there played maybe two
39:26
or three games and then everybody just talked about their life and started talking about what's going on and hanging out and I'm
39:32
literally the only one that's like does anybody want to play in arcade game
39:38
because they're all just talking about their life and catching up and doing this and I'm like I guess great you know
The Importance of Being Present
39:44
this this is the point but I think that there is a little bit of Yearning For That community that we've we we've
39:50
almost lost and through the the digital age we feel like we can catch up with ourselves but it really is just not not
39:56
the same as going to go you know connect Choice f with with people that that you enjoy so
40:02
I still got to go use the those I mean the good news is I think you probably got enough now for like 10 more of those
40:07
events you know I mean I was like I had a whole it was I
40:12
literally had cups I think I and actually I gave some away it was somebody's birthday and I gave away like
40:18
handfuls of them because I was like well I mean dude sounds like sounds like you're doing the right thing there for
40:23
sure so I asked this question a lot to people around this to men around this
40:29
conversation what advice can we give for guys that don't currently have any
40:34
resour you know don't know of or aren't taking advantage of these resources to have this type of connection with other
The Lost Art of Real-Life Conversations
40:42
men yeah so one really important thing that I would say if you have no other
40:48
tools and feel uh even at a standstill maybe for creating Community journaling that's
40:56
that's one just one thing that I like to throw out there because it's a good process of getting things out whether
41:03
you realize it or not and you'd be surprised if you freewrite for some time
41:08
about just whatever is going on you don't have to pick a theme anything just giving yourself a moment to do that and
41:14
then reading back some of that info uh I think can be can be really powerful and
41:20
if you feel comfortable enough if there is a partner or a significant other or friend to connect with you know working
41:26
on maybe sharing some of those inputs or insights it doesn't have to be you reading directly from it but just
41:32
getting in the practice of uh connecting more with the self and also being able to to share that info with with others
41:40
um another thing I would say there are apps and things that are coming around like uh better help um Nami is another
41:48
group uh ntion I'm gonna forget it but na a uh Mi is like a national group that
41:54
also has a bunch of um resources for helping to find like therapists or other
42:00
groups and then there are men's groups out there maybe few and far between I'm
42:07
not always the biggest fan the biggest fan of of them sometimes uh but what I
42:13
would say is if the if it's hard to find the spaces in your potential local area
42:22
the best advice that I was given around it was just begin to lead and
Finding Community and Support
42:27
that leadership can be as simple as if you know one person or one guy or one
42:35
whatever you want to go get coffee you want to go for a walk and just let it
42:40
let it happen naturally you know it doesn't have to be I'm gonna assemble this whole team because I think that's
42:46
part of it it's like oh I don't have this major friend group I don't have this I really really really simple uh
42:53
type types of efforts and what I would say I guess maybe to to on the end of that is if there's really a point of
43:01
struggle um for a lot of men I think it can be harder for us to sometimes admit that we're really struggling with with
43:08
something and if there is a bigger point of struggle where you find yourself I
43:15
I'll give some indicators of what I would say can be struggle that that present for men sometimes if you find
43:20
yourself numbing a lot through substances or you know devices or
43:25
whatever it is if you find a lot of numbing um if maybe you find that point
43:32
of like I'm feeling like one more things happens and I just want to explode you
43:37
know or just I have no more energy to listen to this I don't want to hear anybody you know kind of getting to
43:43
those points um and then another one is I would say con consistent outlooks of
43:50
life will never be any better or like I'm stuck all all those types of feelings I think can manifest Within us
43:58
more so than what we would um we would maybe like to say and if that is going
44:04
on that I would say would be the point to try to go and to find and to seek you
44:09
know help and if it's to a point of like self harm or anything where you know
44:15
you're really feeling um uh deeply impacted there's uh the the national
44:21
hotline that um that just went live as well as resources like Nami and other things but the main thing is the
44:28
struggle point is okay it's okay that you know we get to these points of frustration or depression or sadness and
44:35
it doesn't have to be um it doesn't have to be something that you deal with alone
44:40
that's that's the best way I could say it I love that yeah because you know we we have we have what is more traditional
44:47
strength right but the the the point that we're I think what we're all working for in this space is teaching
44:53
men that strength also comes in the asking for help and and really being being self-aware
45:00
enough to kind of like all right if I need to reach out to someone being strong to the point where
45:06
it literally kills you is not being strong like that's just being dumb in
45:12
some way right and and stubborn that's not strength that's stubbornness and so
45:19
I like that I like that you went through those that that um that list of things in order to do for
Seeking Help and Resources
45:24
sure yeah because and just hopefully it's it's not too much too little just trying to provide Outlets of one just
45:32
normalizing that those feelings are not uh that that it's not alone and that also there's so much there is a lot of
45:39
social pressure to have to perform in in certain ways I think and that is what I
45:45
think gets tricky about us actually wanting to ask for help or for vulnerability even if it's not what the
45:51
direct experience is now you might have previous experiences that have said okay
45:57
me being vulnerable I can definitely say that from I am also of of the era of
46:02
kids being bullied and that being a a normal I'm sure it still happens in life
46:08
but I mean you know whatever amount of years ago there weren't campaigns necessarily against bullying it was
46:15
right so I definitely have have lived through moments of hey this show of vulnerability you know equates to
46:21
physical violence equates to you know whatever it may be so even if that's not
46:27
what's happening now it's possible that that wounding still is is like influencing Us in this moment to say why
46:34
do I not feel comfortable asking for help or showing vulnerability so yeah and that's where that Continuum between
46:40
men's groups events Retreats coaching and counseling right and then like
46:46
online counseling and then inperson counseling that that Continuum exists because we all exist on a different part
46:51
of that and and I think we all move to different places on that continuum too I
46:57
know for me personally and within my marriage it's like well most of the time in our marriage for example we've been
47:03
on like hey we just need a little tuneup we'll go to this event we'll have a good time to where it's like we don't know
Strength in Asking for Help
47:08
what the hell to do with the rest of our lives after our kids left what do we do we need you know this is like a a minor
47:13
crisis that we need to fix so I think that being on that cont and really recognize that is super helpful yeah and
47:20
I actually and I like that you pointed that out too because I think one of the other things we can do is to try to
47:27
apply a a one shoe fits all and I don't think that that's the most effective for
47:33
instance talk therapy may be great for some in some moments or some stages it
47:39
also may not be the best thing at one immediate point maybe it's the best thing in you know in the future time or
47:46
maybe there's some body awareness that has to has to come about first maybe somebody needs to go find more Hobbies
47:54
himself and whatever it it may be it's like you have to find the thing that that does actually work for you and what
48:01
I would want to say in that space is we sometimes talk about men and we talk at
48:06
men we don't really talk to them and I think you know that is a bit of the
48:14
issue is this thought of I don't like the statement of well just go find a therapist it's like that doesn't really
48:20
mean anything for folks if they don't have the lived experience and then also if they're not um
48:26
[Music] if if that that pathway doesn't even seem like readily available and that's a
48:33
lot of what we try to do is act as this bridge between okay I want to go find
48:38
some help or some resources and figuring out ways to say well these are some of the pathways that you can have and then
48:44
also it can it can look like this it can look like you know being in nature for some time it can look like journaling it
48:51
can look like finding ways to meditate it can look like you know being in a community of go that are in similar
48:57
spaces doesn't have to look one way so I love that so it's a good segue but how
49:03
would if if men want to connect with you guys and actually you know I mean I
49:08
people I travel all the time to different events and stuff so if if they want to get more resources from you
49:13
learn more about what you're doing how would they find that yeah so you can go to uh how men cry.com so H WME NC y.com
49:25
we're actually in the process of revamping the site hopefully it'll be done by by the time this this this goes
49:32
live but uh yeah we're putting up more um structure for the Retreats and I'm doing they're mostly local to Chicago
49:38
now but I'm actually working on doing travel ones um I got my eyes on uh Costa
49:44
Rica and a few other places so if you're interested in trying to get out
49:49
somewhere uh cool too that's that's that's on the on the runway for us and then my my artist profile is also uh
49:57
Dexter spits so that's dxtr _ spits or you just type in Dexter
50:02
spits that'll pop up pretty much anywhere and um I keep a list of guys
50:10
like even within my phone that I just check up on here and there um so I'm pretty easy to just say hey to I don't
50:17
like um it's just say hello and we can
50:22
we can figure it out from from there you know that that's awesome we're also at Costa Rica so that's pretty funny that
50:28
that you uh that you that you say that and open invite uh for your group for
50:35
you know I happen to live at 4,500 feet in the mountains of Montana so you know
50:40
so if you ever ever want to stay in the states let me know for sure but hey man thank you so much for coming on board
50:46
and sharing your experience and sharing this advice and wisdom with men and I appreciate you we'll be looking and and
50:52
keeping in touch yeah thank you so much really appreciate the the question and the convo and uh yeah keep doing what
50:59
you're doing too all right thanks brother if you're looking to really maximize your life and become the man
51:06
you were made to be head over to maxed out man.com and get your journey started
51:11
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