Episode 41 - The Dilemma of Burnout and Strategies to Correct It - Jim Young

Kevin Davis interviews Jim Young on expansive intimacy and navigating burnout. They explore various forms of intimacy, emphasizing spiritual and experiential connections beyond romance. Jim advocates for risk-taking and sharing desires to build connections in all aspects of life. The conversation delves into burnout definition, recognition, and recovery strategies, concluding with a discussion on redefining success and using money for a fulfilling life. The importance of close relationships, the impact of isolation, and the need for risk in building meaningful connections are highlighted. Small daily actions, creativity, and pursuing joy are emphasized.

Takeaways

• Intimacy can take many forms beyond romantic and sexual relationships, including emotional, physical, experiential, and intellectual connections.
• Building intimate connections in all areas of life can help prevent burnout and lead to a more fulfilling and thriving life.
• Recognizing the signs of burnout, such as exhaustion, cynicism, and a lack of professional efficacy, is crucial for recovery.
• Taking risks and sharing desires is an important part of building intimate connections and finding fulfillment.
• Defining success based on personal values and using money as a tool can lead to a more meaningful and satisfying life. Close connected relationships are the number one factor for a long, healthy, and happy life.
• Isolation and lack of human interaction have a negative impact on well-being.
• Taking risks and putting oneself out there is essential for building relationships.
• Small changes and daily actions can lead to significant improvements in social and romantic life.
• Being creative and following what brings joy and interest opens up possibilities for building connections.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Informal Conversations

01:10 Jim Young's Background and Philosophy

04:28 Expansive Intimacy and Its Different Forms

05:23 Intimacy Beyond Romantic and Sexual Relationships

09:23 Intimacy in Spiritual and Experiential Connections

11:21 Taking Risks and Sharing Desires

15:17 Building Intimate Connections in All Areas of Life

20:46 The Impact of Intimacy on Relationships

26:39 Defining and Recognizing Burnout

29:47 The Dilemma of Burnout and Strategies for Recovery

35:30 Recognizing Burnout and Making Changes

40:10 Defining Success and Using Money as a Tool

41:41 The Importance of Close Connected Relationships

43:23 The Impact of Isolation and Lack of Human Interaction

44:49 Taking Risks and Putting Yourself Out There

45:46 Building Relationships Slowly and Deliberately

48:20 The Power of Small Changes and Daily Actions

51:09 Being Creative and Following the Fun

About Jim:

Jim Young is an executive coach, facilitator, author, professional comedian, podcaster, and speaker. Using his experiences from the corporate C-Suite, Jim focuses his work on helping leaders and organizations build conscious and sustainable workplace cultures. His book and podcast, both named Expansive Intimacy, explore the immense power that close connected relationships have on creating the future we all want.

www.thecenteredcoach.com
www.linkedin.com/in/thecenteredcoach

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Transcript

0:00
Welcome to maxed out man helping you
0:06
become the man you were made to be hey guys this Kevin Davis from the
0:11
maxed out man podcast this episode number 41 I am here with Jim young uh
0:17
which I'm super excited about and actually my wife said she was excited to listen to this one too I'm gonna kind of read a little bit of your his bio Jim is
0:24
the author of expansive intimacy how tough guys defeat burnout which provides a road map out of the modern burnout
0:31
lifestyle and uh BS right and into more expansive form of success that spans all
0:37
aspects of Life Jim's work focuses on helping men and organizations create thriving sustainable Futures he is also
0:44
the host of the expansive intimacy podcast a weekly conversation on the
0:49
power of intimacy and uh we we'll put this in the show notes but his website is the centered coach.com he is also a
0:57
comedian which I think is going to be fun and super interesting I've always considered myself witty but I am not
1:03
funny so that's the I think I think there's a distinction there you can kind of play off people but it's but it's a
1:10
little bit difficult to actually be funny so hey thanks for coming uh I appreciate you taking the time to be
1:15
here yeah thanks for having me Kevin and I also don't consider myself funny I
1:21
just like to get into situations where fun might happen or funny happen that's good that's th those are the best right
1:28
like humor is humor is a centered part of who um I am personally and I can't
1:33
imagine not having that part of me Life's too short so I did a quick little bio of you but tell me you know tell us
1:40
more what you do kind of what your um philosophy and ideology is on this stuff
1:46
and how you're helping men and you know the women who love them kind of go through some of this stuff yeah uh and
1:53
maybe a a Brazil nut sized nutshell I think that's the biggest nut I don't
1:59
know yeah probably is and by the way we have as much time as you need so take take your time and tell as much as you
2:05
want my grandmother always having those out at Thanksgiving I'm like what the hell are those
2:10
um so my My Philosophy in general so where I'll start is with this concept of
2:17
expansive intimacy which is a phrase that kind of came to me as I was navigating a pretty big life change I'd
2:23
gone through 25y year corporate career worked in leadership roles kind of top of organizations and burn out multiple
2:31
times and finally pulled the rip cord and said I got to go find something else and I I discovered a career in coaching
2:39
and facilitation and speaking and working with leadership teams but I also
2:44
discovered that what was going on for me when I was in Burnout was this sense of isolation this sense that I had to go at
2:51
alone I couldn't ask for help uh I had to always be successful no failure and
2:58
it just was too much like it just was not a good recipe for me and I think it's not a good recipe for for any of us
3:04
to try and go through life with everything on our back and what Unwound it for me was when I started to really
3:11
open myself up to other people and just share like what some of my struggles were what some of my desires were what
3:18
some of the things I was excited about were and be a little bit more creative and I found that there were people
3:25
whether they were friends whether they were you know kind of uh re invigorated
3:30
relationships with my kids even a a really strong relationship I have with my ex-wife I went through a divorce
3:36
around that same time a new romantic partner what I found
3:41
is that by creating intimate Connections in all areas of my life that includes
3:46
colleagues at work that I don't have to carry that all on my back I don't burn out and I
3:53
actually have so much fun so much creativity so much productivity and you
3:59
know that that that's really I guess that's my platform is you know bring Intimacy in every corner of your life
4:06
because that's what's going to you know lead us to a long successful thriving life do you think that that that and let
4:13
me just say I I think that most men especially and women I think both but we
4:18
we Define intimacy almost always in a romantic or sexual way right so it's
4:24
like it's kind of like getting out of that mindset and realize that you can have real intimate relationships with
4:32
other people right other than your romantic partner um is that kind of how you typically try to how how would you
4:38
define Intimacy in the context of what you're doing that's a a great Point Kevin and
4:44
that's one of the first things I usually talk about is that we say it's we hear the word intimacy and we think romantic
4:50
sexual like that's that's the frame that we're in and it's so much wider than that I can have Intimacy in a lot of
4:58
different ways I I've heard you on on some of your episodes you talk about you know being with your your guy friends at
5:03
an event and that you say I love you to each other yeah yeah right there's
5:08
there's a connection there there's a closeness and intimacy can take a lot of forms it's one of the things I unpack in
5:14
the book is we can have that sexual intimacy and that's Pinnacle experience
5:20
you know in my in my life but I can also have physical intimacy that's not sexual
5:25
right um when my kids were little having them sit on my lap reading a book was amazing that's physical intimacy it
5:32
involves touch I can have emotional intimacy I can share with you you know what's
5:37
really going on underneath the surface and let you see me and let let me see you and all that I can have experiential
5:44
intimacy we go out and we do stuff together intellectual intimacy we get into a debate all these different forms
5:50
of connecting to a person and letting letting ourselves be seen and letting people into what's going on for us that
5:58
creates intimate connection we feel we feel closer and you know it when you feel it right and you can feel it
6:04
anywhere that's and that's that's the big point is it's not just with that one relationship right and I it's it's
6:10
interesting for me because I'm a I I'm an Evangelical Christian um and and
6:16
what's you know people always talk about relig religion and your religious person
6:21
and for me that intimate relationship is the way I usually try to explain that
6:27
relationship that I have MH because it it is a spiritual intimacy that you that
6:33
you you know that you can experience I my wife has this picture which is basically Jesus hugging a man like with
6:41
the man's head on his chest and that image there's also this song called We
6:46
Danced which is which is actually talking about this this kind of intimate
6:52
marriage dance at at an event where you're dancing with Jesus and it's like
6:57
dude I mean I get I get kind of new bumpy now because that song and and like
7:03
I'm saying as a as a guy like this is this is Jesus a big Burly man who you
7:09
know if you if you look historically not the this is not Michelangelo's blonde girly Jesus imated yeah right but but
7:17
like it's it's that intimacy and that Vision that I have spiritually that that really you know the for me can Define
7:24
what those relationships look like yeah I'm glad you mentioned spiritual because another form of intimacy and and for you
7:31
as a Christian and I I grew up in a a Catholic household I've I've explored
7:37
different spiritual spiritual paths over the years now and and it's one of the great
7:43
ways that we can connect with something bigger than ourselves and we can feel like oh I'm part of this you know I'm
7:49
I'm connected in a really really deep way from my soul and one of the examples
7:56
I give actually is you know kind of from the secular world I talk about improv comedy as a spiritual experience of a
8:03
type right that we have 60 people showing up in the audience we got all our performers on stage we got the the
8:09
the C the state theh staff in the in the theater it's 70 or so people coming to
8:15
one place for the purpose of lifting our spirits to be together in laughter to be
8:21
connected in this this way that transcends kind of the everyday and so
8:26
there's a lot of forms of spiritual connection that I think are part of how we access intimacy and that can be
8:31
through a belief system like Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or
8:36
it could be through being out in nature on a a hike with a group of your buddies or being at the comedy theater yeah and
8:43
that you know it's kind of funny because I never actually thought about it until you just said that but if you think about improv comedy right there's it's
8:51
not just a an intellectual experience to where you say something I say something
8:56
funny I you know I come up that's not an intellectual because there's a and I've watched I'm not an improv guy but I like
9:03
I was saying before we started I consider myself kind of witty but not but not necessarily stand up and be
9:09
funny uh but it's that you have to have that underpinning of connection
9:15
emotionally and mentally that play off each other right like that's how I would and like I said I'm not I'm not deep
9:21
into the Improv world but that that connection seems like what drives the
9:27
funny and and drives the in it totally does our best shows are when
9:32
we as our director often encourages us is we bring an emotional point of view
9:38
into our scenes and we we really connect with our scene partner that's a lot of where I learned intimacy actually is on
9:45
the Improv stage and improv classes which I've been I've been studying that that form of arts for almost 10 years
9:52
and a lot of like how do I relate to people how do I show myself how do I
9:57
take risks to be true to who what what's actually I feel inside and sometimes I could you know
10:03
practice that on the Improv stage be like oh you know this situation makes me you know brings up a I think there's a
10:09
feeling of I'm sad and so I'm gonna play a sad character and it let me try things
10:15
on I think that's important in any any relationship skill that we're building
10:20
in in building intimacy is we got to take risks we got to play some cards and reveal what's going on and what what how
10:28
would you what are those risks right cuz we all you know we can Define risks in different ways because you know we we
10:34
all ever come from a different place so what what kind of risks are you talking about taking a couple jump straight to mind
10:41
one is around sharing desires I think it's a word that we again sexualize a
10:48
desire often gets gets brought into the bedroom but I've got a lot of Desires in my life I have desires for you know what
10:56
kind of work I do I have desires for you know activities that I want to do and
11:01
some of those don't feel like I should do them they don't fit the the archetype of what you know what I'm supposed to be
11:07
like in the world and so sharing my desires is one way but also you know
11:13
emotions we come back to that like that's a risk when I share with somebody that I'm feeling scared right I'm a guy
11:21
I'm not supposed to feel scared rub some dirt in it put your big girl panties on that's weak
11:27
right and if and it's it's also just true right emotions are
11:32
not they're just part of The Human Experience right and and and for 40
11:37
years of my life I stuffed all that stuff that didn't feel like it fit in the man box down and I said I'm not
11:43
going to be you know worried or afraid or sad or any of these things and I'm
11:49
trying to hold in all this grief and all this concern and all this worry and it
11:56
ate me up and when I started to take the risks to and I had to find places where
12:02
it was safe to take the risks and you know that that's really important like
12:08
you can't just go tell everybody how you're feeling because it might get weaponized and used against you yeah but
12:13
you find that person that you trust and maybe it's your cousin or your best buddy or your your therapist or your
12:19
your minister or whoever who you can just talk to and they're not going to judge you they're just going to let you
12:24
have whatever feeling you're having starting to build that muscle taking that risk and say like yeah you know
12:31
like I'm I'm worried that I'm not making enough money to get my kids college paid
12:37
for and I'm gonna let them down I'm GNA feel like a failure that's a big feeling yeah oh
12:43
100% yeah sorry I interrupted you go ahead no that's good I was gonna say you
12:49
know I've been working with a um a business coach who who I have multiple
12:54
Brands and multiple businesses this is one of them um but he's also a friend of mine but we're not you know we don't we
13:00
haven't known each other that long but but he's one of the guys where when I'm going somewhere and we're an event he
13:06
lives in Philadelphia I live in Montana you know I'll say Hey you know give him a great he's a great hugger we I always
13:12
talk about I always talk about him being an amazing hugger and and um what's funny is I'm six foot he's 6'4 so when I
13:19
hug him I do put my head on his chest kind of a thing uh but but it but it's
13:25
interesting because this last week was a challenging week I didn't get a lot of sleep I had to travel over the weekend
13:30
to North Carolina and back and in like two days and so and I'm feeling some
13:36
pressure financially on some of my business deals and all that and so I basically emailed him and said hey I
13:42
know we're having a meeting and this is kind of where I'm at and I'm expressing to him my anxiety the worry the
13:49
tiredness the fatigue and and all of those things and so that laid out this
13:54
it's like yeah we're talking about revenue and sales and build networks and all that kind of stuff but this
14:00
underpinning of hey you know what's going on with you personally in the context of of this these business
14:08
deals yeah that's the undercurrent you know and and if we're growing as
14:14
individuals if we're trying to achieve things we're going to run into challenges we're gonna have low energy
14:22
we're going to have doubts we're going to you know run into problems that we got to solve that we can't solve on our
14:27
own and that's going to impact us and I think it's so critical to have that person or those people and I I I like to
14:34
think of it as a group of people that's part of the expansive intimacy I've got people all across my life no matter what
14:41
the issue is I have some place to go with it and oftentimes multiple places to go with it to say yeah man this you
14:47
know this contract that I'm waiting on that's going to make a big difference like I don't know what's going on I
14:53
haven't heard back I'm freaking out and have somebody just be there to you know
14:58
be with me in that anxious moment of saying like hey you know I I see that
15:03
that that sounds really stressful sometimes it's all I need is for somebody be like yeah of course you'd be stressed out yeah and and then maybe
15:10
give you a little bit of background on them do you com do you find that you're compartmentalizing and not in a negative
15:16
way what I mean is you have you one particular set of friends or groups of
15:21
people that kind of are in this quote unquote box to say okay well when I'm talking about contracts and business
15:27
deals it's kind of when I'm talking about my relationship with my kids or my ex-wife it's this is that you know does
15:33
that something that you do I'd say definitely at first as I was starting to grow my ability to to have
15:42
more open honest relationships with people nowadays I have so many people
15:47
that are kind of in that trusted advisor category for me that I have Outlets I
15:52
mean I talk to my romantic partner a lot about my business and I also talk to
15:58
I've got a a men's group uh that I meet with once a month guys from um all over the country a couple in Canada we meet
16:05
once a month and and we talk about everything and my improv teammates we get together for rehearsal you know um
16:12
and yeah improv people rehearse um but oftentimes we just get together and we start talking about life and like what's
16:18
going on with parenting or what's going on with our work and it's such a relief because on a day-to-day basis no matter
16:25
almost no matter who I am interacting with I can just be like hey this is what's going on for me today and it's it's such a relief like I
16:32
don't have to be alone with any of it and I get tons of resources I get ideas that I would never have you know as I
16:39
I'm able to share those uh you know those feelings or those worries or whatever's going on and it feels like
16:45
that I mean obviously you're the quote unquote expert in this field but it feels like just having those relationships brings up you know we talk
16:53
about you know Rising tide lifts all All Ships right like having having you
16:58
pursue those intimate relationships with these other other people I would guess actually raises the bar for and and
17:06
opens channels for all of those people in your lives too I hope so and I trust that and I
17:13
also know that I've been really leaning into intimacy as a skill set for about
17:20
two and a half years and I wrote a book on it I do a weekly podcast on it and
17:26
that's so I can continue learning like I feel like I I've scratched the surface even still and that there's so much for
17:33
me to learn I learn in relationship I learn who I am in relationship I learn what I'm capable of I learn you know
17:39
about the things that are outside of my my purview like I haven't understood yet
17:44
because other people can see it yeah this may be too personal a question but I'm curious having and like you said you
17:51
have a great relationship with your ex uh but is was there had this work been
17:56
done earlier in your life do you feel like that would have impacted how that
18:01
relationship progressed um you I don't know the whole situation obviously
18:06
but I I I absolutely think that it would have because I was one phrase I would use is I was
18:14
emotionally immature MH I didn't know how to be honest about what was going on
18:21
inside me and so I shut down and I I made myself unavailable in certain ways
18:27
that were really frustrating to her and she had different ways that she responded to the world that were frustrating to me you I think we both
18:33
could have used some work I think part of why we have a really healthy ultimately the best relationship we've
18:40
ever been in including you know when we first met is because we've both done a
18:45
ton of work to realize what are the things that we trip over regularly in life what gets us into this anxious
18:52
place or this fight flight freeze kind of response instead of taking a breath
18:57
checking out everybody's perspectives having a mature conversation being willing to be wrong having some humility
19:05
you know neither one of us had done that work and and I I put my hand up high for
19:10
not having done any of that work and kind of going through life pretty ignorantly and um and and the the
19:16
divorce was a big slap in the face it was a big wakeup call and I I could have gone in two directions I could have dug deeper and and and been in that hole or
19:24
I could have said right I'm going to climb out and you know inch by inch um you know I think I did and I and and now
19:30
I get to climb the mountain yeah inch by inch right every day it requires work
19:36
yeah that's I've been married for 28 years um and umatul definitely something
19:41
thank you yeah and it's you know it's a miracle she hasn't killed me in my sleep because we w we we we watch a lot of
19:47
Date Line so you know if any of my audience is listening and I just stop doing podcast please do a wellness check
19:53
or something on me but you know they joke because she's the most demure like just a beautiful nice like the nicest
20:02
person in the room way nicer and more interesting than I am but you know she has a she she's a baker also she has
20:08
this poster in her kitchen that says baking because murder is
20:14
wrong so there's this whole underpinning with her friends that are like she's secretly a a serial killer but all that
20:21
to say like we have worked really really hard cuz I I'm not necessarily the most
20:26
emotionally available person I grew up with a crazy childhood you know kind of
20:32
started raising myself early and and my parents are alcoholics and all that stuff and so you know I didn't
20:37
necessarily learn that so my feelings you know that's that I got really good at shoving all that stuff down and you
20:44
know have making ourselves emotionally available to each other has really been a process um over over these 28 years
20:52
which I it's that's a long time and but it gets I say this get it literally is better every single day and and that's
20:59
what that's awesome I've learned so much from my romantic partner we've been together for
21:06
uh about three years and what I've learned from her is that I
21:12
can in a trusted relationship like that which it sounds like you you and your wife have where you can step forward and
21:19
you can do the uncomfortable thing and you don't have to get it right the first time you have to keep coming back and
21:24
you're you're committed to each other's growth and and each other's you know Spirits uh growing that's one of my
21:31
favorite definitions of Love is um you know supporting each others and our own
21:37
spiritual growth and that process of coming back
21:43
and learning each time and not having to get it right has been so soothing for me it's it's allowed me to to grow in ways
21:50
that I didn't think were you know I didn't even understand we possible uh so yeah I I totally understand especially
21:58
what you said about upbringing I think a lot of us shut down those that that that
22:04
emotional honesty because it wasn't safe really early on I grew up in a chaotic
22:09
household as well a lot of alcoholism in my family and some of the work that I I did to help with my healing starting
22:16
about 10 years ago was to do some 12-step work in the allanon program for you know friends and family members of
22:22
Alcoholics and that's one of the first places where I found safety where I could just share what was going on and I
22:27
could hear people doing the same I saw it modeled and I was like oh wow like I
22:32
remember going to the first meeting and hearing people share and I'm like have they been reading my mail
22:39
like how do they know this this story and it's so I was like oh this is common
22:45
I'm not yeah completely unique here i' I've just lived an experience that other
22:52
people have and there's a way through it yeah that's um I've never done those kind of programs I um
22:58
I kind of went and you know I went from stuffing things down to just kind of like I'm a very logistical kind of
23:04
problem solving kind of guy so I I approached it from a logistical you know quote unquote logical sense but allowed
23:12
me to process those emotions and kind of you know come either not necessarily stuff them down but leave certain things
23:18
behind to say okay well I've I've dealt with that I feel okay with that I'm at peace with that and then and then move
23:25
on but yeah it's a it's an interesting because it you know I I think people and
23:30
it's funny that you say that all those people share that experience because I think overall when you look at these different experiences there's such a
23:38
commonality in in them versus like I'm the only one that is facing this right
23:44
you know we're all humans we all have the same basic makeup um experientially
23:49
it's different but but yeah it's not it's usually not surprising when you're like oh all these 30 people are feeling
23:55
the exact same way that I have yeah the details of it look different but the shape of it the same and one of
24:03
the things I discovered when I was writing my book I was writing about burnout my experience of that as a man and how it felt really vulnerable to
24:11
share anything about burnout and what I what I discovered in
24:16
the writing process was that shame played a huge role and I think that I just heard that in what you were talking
24:23
about is like we're not supposed to feel a certain way we're not supposed to you know
24:28
we're terminally unique and like there's something defective about us and when we look around and we see the shared
24:34
experience of so many other people matches what ours is like it's like oh like I'm not bad or wrong or defective I
24:42
just went through some experiences that were really difficult and then you know
24:47
being able to share about that like being able to connect with other people who've had that experience to me that's
24:52
what helped me get through some shame that I had around feeling like I fail
24:57
failed and I I tried to sued I got to the top of the ladder I was a president of a tech company and I burned out and I
25:05
felt shame around that I'm like I couldn't handle it I'm not man enough and then I started to realize
25:11
like okay there's a lot that went into that and as I started to unpack that and started to connect with other people who had similar stories I was like oh
25:18
there's nothing wrong with me yeah that just wasn't the right job for me the right environment for me I wasn't ready
25:23
for it I I had work to do and I could start to to move forward
25:28
can you on that note can you describe because the way I would describe burnout
25:34
may not be the same way you would describe burnout and I think everybody BEC and just you know words have different meanings to different people
25:40
you know and I I worked in the corporate environment before I started my first business in like 25 years ago but um so
25:48
I can put it in that context of the corporate world but what how how do you define burnout and help people Define
25:55
burnout in their own terms the World Health Organization put a a
26:00
formal definition into the icd1 back in 2019 uh International classification of
26:08
diseases where they Define burnout finally and it had been studied for 50 years before that as a a chronic
26:14
condition of unmanaged stress that leads to Three core symptoms exhaustion and
26:21
that's often multifaceted emotional exhaustion is is often the way they describe it but it can be physical
26:27
mental spiritual cynicism or you know kind of a a lack of of belief disconnection and
26:36
then a feeling that you're just not getting it done anymore they call it a lack of professional efficacy you kind
26:42
of lost some zip on your fast ball you know if you're a sports fan like I I'm just not not able to work at capacity
26:49
and so those three symptoms when those are present over a period of time too it's
26:55
chronic it's not you know I hear the term burnout thrown around Loosely like yeah I was feeling a little burned out
27:03
yesterday not really you're having a stressful day you were exhausted or whatever was going on but I think we
27:09
often it's gotten used a little too Loosely at times because there is I
27:15
think at any given time there's probably 10 or 15% of the workforce or the population that are in actual burnout
27:22
there are other people who are along a spectrum who maybe have two of those three symptoms going on or one of those three symptom going on they're at risk
27:29
for Burnout and the numbers on that by various estimates are anywhere from you
27:34
know 50% of the population is somewhere on that risk Spectrum to I've seen some
27:39
wild numbers like 75 80% um the the studies the surveys that come up with
27:45
those numbers are sometimes debatable but um but yeah burnout is is a scientifically studied phenomenon it's
27:52
it's it's clear what it is um and it's it's it just affects a ton of people like it's getting worse every year I
27:58
think the you know the numbers of people who are you know in that high risk or actually in it bucket year over year
28:05
according to one of the studies that I look at the most has gone from like 30 to 35 to like 38 over the last three
28:13
years um so the conditions that are out there for people in the Working World
28:18
and in the world in general are leading to those symptoms being pretty prevalent wow yeah that's and there's a
28:25
there's a physiological component and I don't know if they've studied this but uh you know cortisol which is the the
28:31
stress hormone which is why you know if you're if you're carrying a bunch of extra fat uh you know on your body in
28:37
particular around your midsection that typically is a cortisol response and is there like you know my my estimation
28:44
would be that it's not sustainable for very long like how long do most people
28:50
kind of is there an epiphany is they're like this person had a heart attack or this person lost their job or their
28:56
marriage or what ever like is there a particular Epiphany that people go through that that are like wait a minute
29:02
this is not right I need to take steps to fix this in my experience and one of the
29:08
things that I coach around very specifically is burnout hey guys thanks
29:13
for listening to this episode I hope you're enjoying it and learning a lot if you're looking for extra help don't forget that I do offer one-on-one
29:20
coaching we can talk through a ton of different issues I can give you guides guidelines and logistical help to help
29:27
you take that next step or go to that next level in some of the things that you're dealing with in your life we also
29:32
have some course content some guides uh and a lot of educational materials over
29:38
at maxed out man.com for the coaching go ahead and go to MaxOut man.com coaching
29:43
and you can learn about that and then just go to maxed out man.com for everything else thanks for joining us now back to the episode is that people
29:51
don't come to me saying hey I think I might be on the burnout Spectrum I'm at
29:56
risk of burning out it's I've burned out and there are you've just named a few of
30:02
the events that can happen there are phys physiological events there are
30:08
links between burnout uh related stress and cardiovascular events so prevalence
30:15
of heart attacks uh depression anxiety divorce
30:21
addiction at the very far end worst end of the spectrum is suicide as any other mental health
30:28
condition there's going to be a lot of different effects it's going to affect your body I mean you might feel it as
30:34
you know chronic headaches because you have tension in your jaw because you're carrying so much stress there's a lot of
30:39
different markers and signs and I think the the threshold moments going to be different for each person you how
30:45
resilient somebody is how willing they are to ask for help that sort of thing but what I've found is most typically
30:53
that when we're talking about burnout it's not about prevention it's about recovery people don't say I need help
30:59
until they've kind of crashed and burned and that's that's my story like that's that's exactly the experience I went
31:04
through and part of the work that I try to do when I'm working in organizations helping build cultures is to try and
31:12
burnout proof from the organizational perspective that we're not creating conditions that are likely to cause
31:18
people to burn out and to just hit one other point on that is that it's not that workplaces are the sole cause of
31:25
burnout that's one of the fallacies that's out there that I love to debunk because it it points the finger at like
31:32
it's it's my boss's problem it's the company's problem there they're causing this having particular uh beliefs you
31:40
know being a people pleaser having low self-esteem being a perfectionist those
31:46
are also personal risk factors that can lead people into burnout because they can never do
31:52
enough and I had some of those going on as well so it wasn't just the workplaces I was in was also I was a perfectionist
31:59
because I felt like I could never get anything wrong and I was trying to keep everybody happy terrible recipe for any
32:06
kind of Serenity yeah and it's it's interesting because um because burnout is not so you
32:13
you kind of look at these in like the symptom bucket versus the root cause bucket and so we may think well the
32:19
person the reason this guy or girl doesn't like their job is because they're depressed and they have clinical
32:25
depression let's put them on SSR eyes and you know do all these things or the reason this person's overweight is
32:32
because they're depressed or what but if you kind of it's like what and this is one of the problems I think we have in
32:37
the medical community is that so no one no one asked the question what's your life look like like what's your
32:42
relationships look like what does your work environment look like and and all those to try to come to that root cause
32:47
so it's like this dichotomy of you think that you know it the depression is the problem but it's actually this overdrive
32:55
and this burnout that's the problem right and actually one of the the biggest things that I learned as I was
33:01
researching burnout for writing the book A a former MD by the name of dyke
33:07
Drummond and he's done a ton of work in the healthc care industry where burnout is rampant and he had a paper that I was
33:14
reading where he said something really provocative he said burnout is not a problem and I was like how is that and
33:22
he went on to explain that problems have Solutions I get a flat tire I can call
33:28
AAA I can go get the spare out of my trunk you know 30 minutes later I'm back
33:33
on the road problem solved burnout does not have a single Silver Bullet solution
33:41
because it's not a problem it's a dilemma and dilemas have multiple causes
33:46
as you were just describing and so instead of a solution what we need is a set of strategies which is exactly why I
33:53
got to intimacy because intimacy as we were talking before has all these different permutations and it's about
33:59
getting the the resources and the support that you need for those times when you don't know so you know somebody
34:04
who has you know an eating disorder well one of the resources they might need
34:10
might be a friend group where they can share about how their stress causes them to eat and maybe they also need a diet
34:17
coach and they need a a trainer like we need all these you know
34:22
multifaceted solutions to be fully healthy as people like I mean ultimately it's like if I if I take burnout off of
34:30
the table I need a lot of things in my life to feel at my best I need spiritual
34:36
connection I need physical connection I need you know spaces to to play and have
34:41
fun I need a well-rounded life and that's a lot of what I think intimacy can provide and can help us deal with
34:47
conditions like burnout and other things that are complex like that yeah I'm a I'm kind of a logistical guy like I said
34:54
so I'm I'm curious like if I'm where you know a as you begin to go up this
35:00
burnout Mountain you know what as a person how am I how do I def start to
35:07
say hey maybe this is a problem and then what steps do are you recommending as a
35:12
coach to kind of begin begin to you know diversify into different into different
35:19
paths let's let's put our foot on this path and and not this one in particular sure how are you how do you walk people
35:25
through that just start with a couple simple things first is physically how
35:30
are you doing right do you feel vital and robust you sleeping well do you have
35:37
pain in your body right because that a lot of that is symptoms of stress we carry stress physically in our bodies
35:44
and that could be a sign that okay I'm I'm I'm climbing that burnout Mountain the other thing that I like to do is
35:50
just ask the simple question which I don't think we get asked nearly enough and I don't think we answer it honestly
35:55
nearly enough is what do you want and ask that question across your life like do you want the job you're in
36:03
do you want the social life that you have do you want you know the experience that you're
36:08
living how well are you achieving the things that you want and if you're not
36:15
then start to look at what's holding you back because if you're not getting what you want if you're not living inside the
36:21
things that you value you're creating stress in your life you're having to manage every day you're you're in what
36:27
the next day holds you're you know on Sunday you're starting to worry about I got to go to work tomorrow right pay
36:33
attention to those signs and I think we you know it's so easy to get stuck in this rut that says like well I just got
36:39
to do what I got to do right I got a mortgage I got kids I got and like yeah absolutely I get it right and I say this
36:46
from a guy who walked into his boss's office and quit a six-figure job with no
36:54
plan five years six years years ago because I couldn't do it anymore now I
37:00
won't recommend that approach but I I mean but sometimes sometimes that's the
37:06
first you got to take the leap right yeah so it's about taking risks and there's a lot of different ways to make
37:11
that move but if you realize like okay if I did this if I kept this life going
37:17
for the next five years 10 years what would it look like what would it what would the quality of my life be like and
37:23
if you're not happy with that answer start to figure out the change yeah and I would say you know work with
37:29
somebody um and it doesn't have to be somebody that you pay like a coach although coaches can be as as you know
37:35
incredibly powerful resources it could be a therapist it could be you know a peer group but get outside of your own
37:42
head get some other perspectives because I know when I tried to First make a move out of burnout tried to do it on my own
37:49
and I started a failed business I couldn't I couldn't sustain it I went back into a corporate job that burned me
37:55
out again and I finally said okay I'm going to do it with some help this time I'm going to get get the resources that
38:01
I need and it's launched me into you know something that I I love to do every day isn't that funny how we will go and
38:09
this is you know I I think this defines addiction too but we go back to things that we know are not good for us because
38:17
it's it's more comfortable to be in the bad part of that than it is to to feel
38:23
comfortable in the risk and the unknowns M yeah yeah it's it's avoidance it's
38:29
denial it's you know this isn't I I'll just have it this one more time I'll just have that ice cream Sunday or I'll
38:35
have the whiskey or whatever it is that that might draw you in and it's it's numbing out it's staying away from the
38:42
pain and every time I've gone through the pain and it's not to say I don't still avoid stuff right oh yeah um but
38:52
the lesson that I've learned over the years is every time I go through through that scary looking door I get surprised
39:00
on the other side I find some kind of growth that I didn't expect and now it's
39:05
not even scary anymore it's like yeah I I've got a formula that I live by and I
39:10
I I prescribe it to uh one of my two primary improv teachers and they both deny that they taught me this but
39:16
whatever um scary plus interesting equals growth H something that feels a
39:22
little bit scary but there's something interesting about like what would happen if I did that there's growth there's
39:30
going to be growth on the other side of that and so when I can see that combination I'm like all right let's go
39:36
buckle up yeah that's really cool scary plus interesting equals growth I like
39:43
that I like that a lot and what you were talking about before is something I talk a ton about you know which is how you
39:48
define success actually have on my over my shoulder success redefined is one of
39:54
kind of my posters I've got a t-shirt and all all that stuff but you know it's like how are you defining what success
40:01
looks like to you and and in your life and I think so many times you know in a
40:07
we call it the rat race or you know trying to climb the corporate ladder or be successful in your business if you're
40:13
defining that around either accolades or money or you know drive and all those
40:19
things there's never enough of those things to be satisfied right um and I talk about using money money's a money's
40:27
you know when you don't have any money it sucks so money but amount we need
40:32
yeah and then and we talked about I was on a podcast yesterday we talked about Bill Gates's wife and and how she is
40:40
kind of she he had had he had been around her and she was just miserable
40:46
she was just a miserable person so there's like no have no money is also is
40:51
terrible but a way too much money can also be terrible because then you you don't know how to define those things
40:58
but defining success and using money to build your life I think is something that's that can be hugely impactful uh
41:05
and really defining that for yourself I totally agree any of those status-based
41:11
measures of success are bound for failure because it becomes a comparison
41:16
game and it's never ending I remember somebody telling me a story about was the the the wealthiest man in it's one
41:24
of the Nordic countries I don't remember if it was you know Sweden or whatever but he had a personal wealth valuation
41:30
of like $3 billion and something happened with his Investments where he lost a bunch of his
41:38
his wealth and he was now like the second or third wealthiest person in the
41:43
country he stepped in front of a train committed suicide oh yeah I I remember that story right like you can never win
41:51
that game and and the study I often point to because I think of you know success and
41:57
happiness I think have some correlation the Harvard study of adult development which is the longest running
42:04
study on human happiness it's been going on for about 80 years some of the original participants are still alive
42:09
and they get surveyed every year they've studied this this group and they've expanded it over the years to their uh
42:16
descendants or you know their their their family members as they've looked at this data
42:22
they've cataloged what are the factors for a long healthy happy life or as they
42:29
refer to them Happy Well elders and some of them are you'd expect right exercise
42:36
have a spiritual practice don't smoke drink moderately uh the number one factor if
42:44
you could only do one of the seven things that they prescribe is to have close connected relationships hey guys
42:51
thanks for listening to this episode I hope you're enjoying it and learning a lot if you're looking for extra health don't forget that I do offer one-on-one
42:58
coaching we can talk through a ton of different issues I can give you guides guidelines and logistical help to help
43:05
you take that next step or go to that next level in some of the things that you're dealing with in your life we also
43:10
have some course content some guides uh and a lot of educational materials over
43:16
at maxed out man.com for the coaching go ahead and go to maxed out man.com coaching and you can learn about that
43:22
and then just go to maxed out man.com for everything else thanks for joining us now back to the episode or intimacy
43:29
mhm that is what sustains us is the people in our lives and you hear about
43:35
it when somebody leaves a job and whe they quit or they got fired or whatever it's say you know what do you miss about
43:41
it the people you know that's why we're here is to connect with other people and
43:47
so if we lean into that into intimacy I think what it does for us is it helps us get to happiness it helps us get to
43:55
success yeah and it it seems like over the last obviously with the pandemic and all that kind of stuff with with what
44:01
what it you know depending on how you look at it forced isolation um it's and looking at the
44:06
data it seems like that that Isolation part of it and that lack of human interaction is is so bad right now and
44:14
and you know I feel like as a society it's hard to imagine how we how we turn
44:19
that around you know yeah I think it's going to require people to take risks of
44:27
different types because some of those social skills have atrophied I've got kids who are 15 18 and 20 and so they
44:35
were you know in high school or middle school when the lockdown period happened
44:41
at a critical time in their Social Development and you know what I've had to encourage them to do is continue to
44:48
put yourself out there you're not going to know how to do it do it anyway and
44:53
you're G to figure it out on the Fly it's a little bit like Improv we have a a tenant improv that says follow your
44:58
foot which means you know if you're if you're on the side side of the stage and and there's you know some other scene
45:04
going on and you feel like you get your body says like oh I think I should go into this scene but I don't know my head
45:11
doesn't know how just follow your foot and then figure out what's going to happen once you get there and trust that
45:17
you already have everything that you need you just got to take a risk yeah and you know that that
45:23
recovery period is going to be interesting I'm I'm not you know especially for the the really younger
45:28
children that missed out missed out on all that my kids are 25 and 23 so it's a it was a little bit different because
45:34
they were already out of that but yeah that's it taking that risk and not being afraid
45:42
to fail is is something that they definitely need to do if you're if you're and I want to be respectful of your time but if you're looking at you
45:49
know if I'm the average person I feel like I'm doing you know kind of like we talked about earlier we're kind of ready
45:55
to step off of the mountain or stop moving towards that burnout Mountain what are the first steps and I asked
46:02
this kind of you know I've had many guest where we talk about getting out of isolation and building relationships and
46:07
all that what are what are your advice what's your advice on how to begin this process to do that expansive intimacy
46:14
right like be begin to build those relationships slowly um how do you how do you
46:20
prescribe that for lack of a better term for men in particular the first
46:26
thing I would say is figure out the activity that you love whether that's
46:32
bowling or archery or hiking or playing cards and find a group of people group
46:37
of guys that are interested in the same thing because as men we're conditioned to socialize shoulder-to-shoulder in
46:44
activities we don't go to a cafe and sit down and pour out our hearts to each other I think women are more ad dep at
46:50
that yeah right so take it slow and do something that already feels fun to you
46:55
and don't expect on that first time that you're going to you know develop a blood
47:01
brother but just keep committing to that and put it on the calendar I've got a guy I met a couple years ago he lives
47:07
out in Chicago we we just get on a call about once a month and one of the keys to that relationship is we put it on the
47:14
calendar and we know like we're going to talk we're just going to you know geek out about music or he's a he's a
47:21
musician and um find that common thread that gets you talking about low stakes
47:28
and then start to take a little bit of a risk if you start to kind of get that feeling of like you know hey it's got
47:35
this urge to let this guy know that I I think he's really cool and I'd like to hang out with him again and I'd like to you know share about you know my work or
47:43
whatever it is just start growing that Circle a little bit each time take take
47:49
small risks and once you've done that enough times you're going to realize like okay this guy sees me and he get
47:55
gets me and he thinks I'm a you know a good person so I can kind of share more with him and you just one of the things
48:04
that I learned in in my 12ep work in alanon is the one day at a time principle we've all seen the bumper
48:09
stickers or wherever else we've seen it it's there for a reason we do one little thing every day James Clear uh who wrote
48:17
Atomic habit says this as well uh you know small
48:22
changes repeated every day get us where we want to go so if you feel like you
48:27
know what I want I want to have more friends I want to have better social life I want to have a better romantic life find what's the little thing you
48:33
can do each day you if it's in your romantic life write a little note to your uh sweetheart in the morning leave
48:40
it on the counter have to be some big Grand gesture like hey thinking of you hoping you're having a great day yeah
48:48
and see what that builds and then just keep building have fun with it yeah it's
48:53
it's funny and I think I've told this story before but I actually did that for an entire year I took a 3x5 card and um
49:00
and wrote It's You know what I love about you and I and I started taping it
49:05
around her mirror in her master bathroom by the end of that year you can imagine
49:11
365 of those yeah um but that was something that uh you know actually had to but I can't actually see myself in
49:18
the mirror yeah right see you know luckily our bedroom our bathroom is is a decent size so she had she had room to
49:23
do that but but then I took it and put it in in a book um at you know I did like a Shutterfly type book threw some
49:30
pictures in there but I was deliberate about it like I actually got an Excel spreadsheet and I I sat down every
49:37
couple of weeks and I listed 10 or 11 things you know and and then use that
49:42
you know it's not like I was every morning sitting on the in the sunshine writing these eloquent things like I I
49:48
was deliberate about it but I I love what you say about this shoulder-to-shoulder idea because a lot
49:54
of times we talk about isolation we talk about intimacy we talk about building better male you know MTO male
50:01
relationships and a lot of time it's like well that's a bunch of woo woo and I've got to go pour my heart out for
50:07
people and I had this discussion with with somebody the other day and they were a little bit disagreeable about the
50:13
fact that men's relationships are built around activity like that's just that's
50:18
just how we work because I was having the discussion that I have a difficult time where I live because I'm I'm no I'm
50:25
not really a hunter you know and I live I live in rural Montana which this time of year everybody's hunting widow all
50:32
the wives are hunting widows right now because of on well I I don't like hunting it's not my thing I'm a car guy
50:38
I I build hot rods and do jeep stuff and you know entrepreneurial stuff and so I have a I have a pretty very small local
50:47
relationship pool so to speak activity wise but it you know going out and being
50:54
able to find that you know is something that's super important so like if there's a car show I can go out and do
50:59
that or if I meet somebody that likes cars I can actually bring them out to my shop or or like you're saying learn
51:04
playing golf and going to different if you're an entrepreneur going to those kind of meetings or or any of those
51:11
things right like that's where it starts yeah I I 100% agree and and
51:17
sometimes it does take some creativity and sometimes it's like all you know what I'm going to check out something new that I don't do um it could be so
51:24
many things you know if you're micro Brewery geek you know go out and belly up to the bar and sit next to them be
51:30
like hey what are you drinking yeah you know um yeah I think if we just allow
51:35
ourselves to be creative and and kind of follow the fun uh follow like what's what's interesting to us then you know
51:43
we we open up a lot of possibilities and you know just just make that move see what happens yeah take that risk right
51:50
that's the that's the big important thing for sure absolutely well I think that's a great place place to kind of
51:56
wrap up um if people want to learn you know obviously your book your podcast where do we where do we find all this
52:01
and I'll put you know I'll put more of these show not in the show notes also but um kind of guide us through that
52:07
sure really everything can be found U via my website the centered coach.com I'm pretty active on LinkedIn podcast
52:14
releases every week and there's a a link on the website for that my book is there as well uh so yeah really anything that
52:21
uh people want to find out about me can kind of go through that one channel awesome all right Jim well I appreciate
52:26
your time man I I think this is super helpful and hopefully we'll encourage some people that are facing you know
52:31
even if they're early stages of burnout to go and you know start taking steps to step off that mountain and and you know
52:38
look at more more ways for expans of intimacy right yeah thanks for having me
52:44
on the show Kevin I really appreciate being in the conversation all right we'll talk to you again soon all right cheers if you're looking to really
52:51
maximize your life and become the man you were made to be head over to maxed out man.com and get your journey started
53:01
today.