Episode 61 - Chivalry Reimagined: Kindness as the New Courage - Jake Stika

In this conversation, Kevin Davis interviews Jake Stika, co-founder of Next Gen Men, about masculinity and its impact on young men. Jake shares his personal journey and how it led him to start Next Gen Men, an organization focused on promoting healthy masculinity. They discuss the role of coaches in shaping masculinity, the importance of integrated masculinity, and the need for multiple masculinities. They also explore the concept of chivalry and kindness in today's society. 

The conversation explores the topics of kindness, chivalry, navigating uncertainty, vulnerability, shared responsibility, and the power to create change. The guests discuss the importance of being kind to others and how chivalry can be seen as an act of kindness. They also talk about the challenges men face in navigating societal expectations and how vulnerability can lead to stronger connections. The conversation emphasizes the need for both men and women to take responsibility in shaping a more equitable society. It concludes by highlighting the power individuals have to create change and providing information on where to find more resources.

Takeaways

• Masculinity is between stories, and we are currently in a transition period where the old story of masculinity is shifting.
• There is a need for multiple masculinities, as each individual's expression of masculinity may differ.
• Integrated masculinity involves being comfortable with fluidity and embracing different aspects of masculinity in different situations.
• Chivalry and kindness are not mutually exclusive, and it is important to differentiate between the two.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background
03:24 Jake's Personal Journey
08:34 Founding Next Gen Men
13:21 The Role of Coaches in Shaping Masculinity
17:18 The Importance of Integrated Masculinity
23:39 Navigating Masculinity in Today's Society
29:23 Strength and Flexibility in Masculinity
36:22 The Role of Women in Masculinity
40:50 Chivalry and Kindness
42:42 Kindness and Chivalry
45:00 Navigating Uncertainty
48:30 Courage to Be Vulnerable
51:46 Shared Responsibility
53:16 Power to Create Change
54:43 Finding More Information

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Transcript

0:00
[Music] welcome to maxed out man helping you
0:06
become the man you were made to be hey guys this is Kevin Davis from the
0:11
maxed out man podcast and today I am here with Jake stier uh we were just
0:16
discussing the proper pronunciation of uh his last name so I'll welcome here here in a minute but I wanted to let you
0:22
know if you're looking for more information about Max outman go to MaxOut man.com you can find us on all the social medias as well we're getting
0:29
ready to uh we're doing currently a new coaching program which will have probably ended by the time this launches
0:35
uh but make sure you go to MaxOut man.com and look at some of our challenges and some of the other things that we have to offer so Hey Jake is a
0:41
passionate speaker and facilitator uh focused on gender based issues related to Social and emotional
0:49
development of young men the health and well-being of men in communities and gender equality and works
0:55
workplaces um this is a topic I'm particularly interested in just overall we've had we've had a very diverse uh
1:02
group of men come talk on this podcast about these similar issues but one of the things we talk a lot about is um is
1:10
kind of young men in particular and what's happening to boys becoming young
1:15
men and kind of this environment that we're currently facing and how that impacts their view of masculinity or
1:22
fear of masculinity in some in some cases so I'm particularly interested in that but hey there's your like LinkedIn
1:29
quick bio but tell us kind of give us and take as long as you want but give us kind of your background and how you got
1:35
here and I know you've been doing this particular um Avenue for over 10 years
1:41
and so uh fill us in geez where to begin um I'm starting
1:47
to feel like Star Wars in a galaxy far far away you that's right we have those have those rolling credits so be exact
1:54
you um I mean there's different parts of my story that I think uh make me who I am
2:01
so I'll start with the fact that I was born in what was then Czechoslovakia I actually came to Canada in the early 90s
2:08
as a refugee so you know a tall straight white dude a lot of privilege in my life
2:15
in those ways but you know growing up in imigrant and English is a second language and not money you know I think
2:21
gave me a little bit of a different lens than the average white girl um then I
2:27
grew up um yeah I was tall got 68 and so
2:32
you know my first sport was was Seer and wasn't very good at that because I was
2:38
tall people were like you should try basketball and so I started playing basketball and that then basically from
2:47
grade five through to 24 was my big part of my identity if not like Jake the
2:54
basketball player you know and so your your first name was either Jake the basketball player or Jake or hi Jake
3:01
you're super tall right I have tall friends and for whatever reason people love to point out the obvious like like
3:08
you didn't realize that you have to duck going through a typical door frame right like this is a surprise but yeah yeah my
3:16
my friend group I just got back from a guy's trip to to Portland and two other guys in the group are ex basketball
3:22
players and they're like 64 65 and there's one other guy 6'2 and we tease him for being the little one the little
Jake's Personal Journey
3:28
guy right yeah that's funny um so you know basketball
3:34
was was a big part of my identity and you know I was pretty good uh got to
3:42
to University with that but I started studying something that I just didn't have a lot of connection to and and my
3:48
first year was really hard and I was acade academically ineligible to play my second year wow so then I'm robbed of my
3:55
identity as Jake the basketball player I'm just you know some student at school who struggling and uh my coping
4:02
mechanisms at 19 were binge drinking and fist fights and um I ended up flunking
4:08
out of that first University that I went into transfer schools found a program that I connected with more smaller class
4:16
sizes I walked on to that their basketball team you know two years later
4:21
three years later I guess I'm a Canadian all academic athlete life's back on track but boom I'm hit with depression
4:28
again and at 22 my coping mechanism is self harm and through that and um you
4:35
know dating a women's studies gra at the time um you know I went to therapy counseling really came to understand
4:42
this mascul script you gota be tough you should never show emotion you should never ask for help that was harming me
4:48
and that was kind of my Awakening to to issues relating to masculinity um and uh as I was going
4:55
through that my best friend who I co-founded the organization with unfortunately lost his to your brother to suicide in 2007 uh he was a young
5:02
black man experiencing homophobic bullying and um so my best friend's name Jamal Jamal's loss and grief and and my
5:10
own kind of struggles I think we formed a a male friendship that a lot of guys don't get the benefit of around you know
5:16
emotional support and vulnerability and being there for one another um and so you know we just kind
5:24
of came came of age together that way and then um you know Jamal went off and
5:29
he started working with atrisk youth and I did play like a little bit of basketball Europe but then you know
5:36
retired at the right age of 24 and got an entry-level job as a business
5:43
analyst and worked in business development sales for a startup but all the while I started fundraising for the
5:49
member Foundation Men's Health and and those types of things and in
5:55
2014 I guess it was maybe 2013 um they had a call for proposals
6:00
for new ideas to change the face of men's health in Canada and um you know I
6:05
read about this other organization doing work with young men and I this is inspiring and my best round works with
6:12
youth and I work start and if these idiots can do it I can do it you know so
6:18
I pitched pitched the idea to to movember and um they asked us to you
6:24
know get a little bit more rigor so we brought third coer who has
6:30
Masters in public science or public health um named Jason and and with him on board they gave you know three
6:36
Knuckleheads $150,000 to start a youth program and um yeah that's kind of I
6:43
think the the highlights of of maybe who I am and the experiences I've that me to
6:51
you know founding co-founding this organization nice yeah that's that's a
6:56
ton that's a that's a a great story I'm curious about your journey into basketball in terms of like not the
7:03
sport aspect of it but like hey you're tall you should right like is that is
7:09
that kind of how it went or did you actually like try it and have a genuine love for it and then pursue it because
7:15
of that or pursuing it out of not obligation to others but also like
7:21
obligation to your own physicality right like I think in some cases we can do
7:26
that yeah no I think it's a great question and I think the early days um you know I was tall and I I was playing
7:32
like housle and um not very coordinated
7:37
or skilled or or any of those types of things but enjoying it enjoying it having fun and then um I remember this
7:46
kind of Crossroads I think it was like grade seven grade eight and they there was an opportunity for me to try out for
7:52
a club team and tried out for the club team and it's a little fuzzy to me now
8:00
exactly what it was but there was kind of like this higher club team and lower club team and I didn't quite make the higher club team I made the lower club
8:06
team and I went through that season that was the first time I had like a really serious Coach like uh you know before it
8:13
was a lot of you know dads helping out and you know maybe they they played some basketball growing up but this was like
8:19
the first time I had a serious Coach and I think I started to really learn the
8:24
value of like Mastery and effort and output and uh at the end of the season
8:31
uh I got a trophy most improved player and uh so not like you know MVP or
Founding Next Gen Men
8:37
anything like that but like you put in the work and we're recognizing you out of that and I think the bu just got and
8:45
yeah so that was you know grade eight and then at that point in time you know grade nine I was like 6 63 6'4 and and
8:54
um so fell into Club and junior varsity varsity lost in the
9:02
city championships a couple times and then yeah just made way but that being
9:08
said coaches make or break you and they they create that culture that environment and um you know I was really
9:17
unlucky in my postsecondary uh I had a lot of coaches that I did not get along with and that did not set a good culture
9:24
and um you know I think it's an absolute fluke that I did manage to play uh year
9:29
overseas um but uh yeah I think uh I
9:35
don't know how much you're following some of the like Hockey Canada stuff in in Canada going on right now with sexual
9:41
assault dations and those types of things and I think you know we like to paint whether it's athletes or coaches
9:48
as as you know maybe a couple bad apples but we really got to look at the system in these types of things and I think um
9:54
you know there's there's a way of looking at coaching as an opportunity to uh influence the Next Generation not
10:01
only you know on the I on the court but how they want to show up as as men in their communities and and in their
10:08
families and those types of things or there's the I went through this grind so that means you have to go through the gr
10:14
even harder than I did because that's what's going to make you this thing and you know I'm GNA play psychological
10:20
games with you to try to get the best out of you and so I think there's an interesting thing to look at there as
10:26
well too yeah I think in in a lot of cases you know I think coaching is and
10:31
teaching is just like anything else in life but you know we we um I'm in the
10:37
automotive World also and we have a lot of people that are good at something and then they decide they need to teach
10:43
other people how to be good at that thing when they could they really should just be good at that thing and they have
10:49
absolutely no skill whatsoever for coaching and teaching and leading right
10:54
like and that's that's not to disparage anybody I'm just saying that there there are coaches that were awesome players
11:00
and have absolutely no business being a coach they may know the mechanics they may know strategy from from a player but
11:09
like especially in young younger Sports and especially in my mind when it when
11:14
it comes to young boys because this is like they probably have one of the
11:19
single most important and most influential positions in that boy's life
11:27
and so like you said make a break right like they're either going to screw this kid up for years or they're gonna
11:33
they're going to catapult him into a life of you know everything we want to
11:39
be as men right just to highlight the importance of that coach's role early
11:45
childhood education is a female dominant field there's times where young men the
11:51
first male teacher they'll have probably like be Middle School maybe they'll have some gym teachers and maybe they'll have
11:57
some principles or whatnot but that the field of basically like preschool to grade six is so many female teachers and
12:05
so outside of school if they're in a sporting environment and they have a male coach oftentimes that male coach
12:13
may be one of the only role models of what masculinity is outside of that young man's father grandfather Uncle
12:20
their immediate circle and so you know we want to have a diversity of masculinities as well too but you want
12:26
to have hopefully a healthy masculinity a coach who supports you encourages you
12:32
invites you to develop a love for the game um it is an incredibly important role yeah and and in like in my case my
12:39
my parents were divorced I had a single mom that was addicted to various substit
12:44
so I really had no adult real or male ra Role Models at that time other than like
12:51
whatever guy my wife my my mother was dating at the time right so that's
12:56
that's not a healthy thing but I did have coaches and you youth leaders um that I think back and I'm like these
13:02
guys were like 22 years old at the time right like it's they were they were just young young men themselves but they they
13:09
did show that and it's got to be difficult in a coaching environment too because you know there is like this war
13:15
aspect of sports right like we're we're here because you it is you require to be
The Role of Coaches in Shaping Masculinity
13:21
tough no matter what sport you're doing right but there's also this camaraderie
13:26
and all that I had this discussion with my youngest daughter who's 24 and she made what I believed and to
13:33
your point about it there's a systemic issue here too but she made the point like all football players are racist or
13:39
uh are rapists and I'm like no they're not all right like there there you know
13:47
there may be there may be something systemic that creates a culture in which
13:54
that could be more more prominent or you know more leaned into or whatever but it
13:59
you know you get the right coach you know we we can think of major coaches that you can see or have that impact in
14:05
a good way right to turn these boys really into men one of my favorite movies is called Facing the Giants it's
14:12
actually a Christian movie but it's about a football team and it has a you know it has a Christian theme to it but
14:18
it's it's that camaraderie and that you know working together for the good is
14:24
what really drove you know one of the reasons I love that movie but side note on that yeah and I mean I think there's
14:31
it I've been thinking a lot about this because obviously Sports is a place that I was formed into who I am and and I
14:37
think it's a a place for transformation and um I think there's a subtle Nuance that
14:45
like that war that like you know toughness that grit that grind whatever it is is that for the purpose of the
14:54
outcome or the purpose of the process because it's for the purpose of the outcome you will always be incentivized
15:01
to take shortcuts and you'll fall in love with the idea of winning at all costs or those types of things but if
15:09
it's for the process and the process is you know we're going to go compete we're
15:14
going to go play hard against this team and they're going to be our Challenger and they're going to try to bring out the best in us or the worst in Us and
15:20
how do we overcome that and how do we then bring that into practice and how do we bring that into the waight room and
15:26
how do we how do we bring that into the fact that last year you were benching this and this year you're benching this
15:31
and last year you were running at that speed and this year you're running at that speed like that's the process right
15:37
and we can always to that work and not villainize the other people
15:44
because they're just a foil iness as well too and I think that that's where
15:49
really like that coaching philosophy comes from and you know your your daughter's comment like I I I I
15:56
empathize with her um you know I think that you know we live in a culture in a society where gender based violence is
16:03
so prevalent and and being a young woman it can be an incredibly scary lights and
16:08
so something like that is set you know existing in that type of world and even if that's not necessarily the case I
16:15
think that we could probably say that a lot of men in our society are complicit
16:20
because they hear the you know the sexualized jokes the rape jokes the whatever and they don't call that out
16:26
they don't say hey that's not okay in community and that doesn't make them you know all rapists like she said but like
16:32
we as men uphold this culture and I think that's really what next genen men
16:38
is trying to do to you know maybe build a bridge into our further conversation is is to say hey like what kind of
16:44
culture what kind of masculinity and Community do we want to be a part of and what role do we play in that yeah and
16:51
what I mean what makes it what make because there are some young men that you know I've met that are bu n it's
16:59
almost by nature but I think there's also a nurturing component 15 16 17 that
17:05
are natural leaders right and can and and are are actually teaching their
17:10
peers exactly what you're saying which is hey look that's not something we do I had I had a guest on my podcast uh named
The Importance of Integrated Masculinity
17:18
Larry Bren who's a who's a businessman but he had lost his son and I've told
17:23
this story a few times but if you haven't heard on the podcast I'll tell it again anyway he his son his son
17:29
passed away at 17 and Larry had been teaching his son all of these things
17:35
about how to be a man you know in various aspects um with respect and
17:41
integrity and all those and and you know young teenager right like I don't care what you say Dad that's a bunch of crap
17:47
you know whatever and then at this at his son's funeral he had like 12
17:53
different young men stand up and mention and dude I get I get choked up at this story every time I tell it but and say
18:01
hey your son taught me how to stand up to shake hands your T your son taught me
18:06
that it's okay to open a door for a woman or to treat her with respect or
18:13
you know to how to how to deal with other men in my life and and all of those things but it was like 12
18:18
different young men and so that kid had taken what his dad had taught him and passed it along as a leader in his small
18:25
community of other boys right yeah and that to me just shows the transformative power like you
18:33
know whether like it's easier as a boy to look up to a man because you know
18:40
masculinity you know it's a familiar thing or whatnot but like at bare minimum every child needs an adult that
18:48
is caring and connected to them and that is going to be an anchor for them as they navigate the Rough Waters of life
18:55
into their own adulthood right if they have that chances are they'll turn out okay and if they have an adult beyond
19:03
that who is you know so caring and doting and wants to like build that up
19:08
that not only impacts that young person but that impacts that Young Person's community and so I think there's you
19:15
know and and you know I have empathy for for parents these days like it's really expensive and we're always working and
19:22
like there's there's all these things that are in our way of giving that time care and attention but you see when you
19:29
tell that story that the time care and attention of that father gave to his son
19:36
goes out into the community and now imagine if every father was that engaged that caring that committed what kind of
19:42
our community we would all exist with yeah and to be able to pass that along
19:47
right and and to take the time and effort to to teach and and I I want I want to dig into this more with you when
19:54
whenever I saw what you do and and was reading on some of your stuff it's like how are we we I have this ideal um that
20:02
or idea I guess um that it's these young men now are in an environment where they
20:10
they really don't even know what masculinity is looks like and and I and
20:16
and or we're we're actually creating an environment where young men are afraid
20:22
to be whatever kind of man they are right I've talked about in the past that
20:28
I I would be I would represent kind of the stereotypical upper middle class
20:34
white guy right um but one that is like I work out six days a week I like cars I
20:42
tend to be more traditional when it and my wife and I have a fairly traditional role but she's a she's a let me preface
20:49
that by saying she's a welder she's also a boxer she's you know we we spend a ton
20:54
of time in the women in the trades thing so that's kind of my preface for that not like she's she was a homemaker most
21:00
of the time our kids were growing up but then she kind of came into the she's rally racer and all this other stuff but
21:07
we have a fairly traditional thing right so like I almost become the the anti-hero in the
21:15
masculine story because because I am what I would consider traditionally
21:21
masculine what you would think however as I've talked about many times like I'm
21:26
like I can tell that story get choked up and not worry about what people think of me I have deep relationships with my my
21:33
close male friends I tell them I love them I'm you know we ask I ask about their wives and their kids and like we
21:39
have this deep connection but on the surface you would you would not assume that right like you
21:46
would assume I'm a certain way how are we how do we get through first of all can you verify that that's the case or
21:52
tell me about what you think about that and how do we kind of navigate through what's going on with this stuff
21:59
first of all the way that I kind of talk about where we're at is that masculinity is between stories and there used to be
22:07
an old story of what it was and um you know that story was handed down to us by
22:12
our great grandfathers our grandfathers and their fathers but it's been shifting
22:17
over Generations now and we don't know what the next story is we're writing it
22:24
and I think in in that space of knowing and and this doesn't have to be me in
22:30
general like you know say anything in the world in a space of not knowing certain people will be a lot of people
22:37
will be very uncomfortable some will see it as an opportunity and like be very imaginative and creative and and try to
22:45
like create write that story others will cling to what they know and go backwards
22:51
and and grasp for that familiarity and that stability and I think that's kind of culturally where we are right now um
22:58
but when I hear your story and your thoughts about this I myself too like
23:04
you know giant you know six fo white dude being like traditional like masculine presence um there's there's
23:13
definitely assumptions that people make about us and we can't necessarily help that because you know there's media and their own lived experiences and those
23:19
types of things but when I hear about you know your wife and um you know your
23:25
your your solidness and ability to like OTE and stuff to me that's like a very
23:31
healthy form of masculinity it's like this is who I am this is what I'm comfortable with but like this is where
23:38
I think the the big you know debate or war on this is I don't hear you saying
Navigating Masculinity in Today's Society
23:44
the way I am is how every other guy should be right and I think that's where we need to get to a place with
23:50
masculinity is mul masculinities yours is different than mine is different than that person's and that's okay right
23:57
there's be a diversity of of ways of being in and none of us are you're not
24:02
more than because you're you like cars and you're not less than because your your wife has an income and is a rally
24:09
racer you know like it's just um it it just is and you're comfortable in that
24:15
and um you know I think of the word integrity and I think people uh when
24:20
they hear Integrity they hear you know someone who holds the word someone who's trustworthy but I think of the actual
24:27
root of it it's it's integrated and I think we need to strive for an integrated masculinity and what that
24:34
means is comfort with fluidity because the chances are your masculinity is different with your partner it's
24:40
different on this podcast it's different when you're in a car shop it's different when you're with your daughter and
24:46
there's not like one solid way of being a man for you and so why do we keep trying to say like this is the way of
24:53
being a man when you can sit in that and understand that you're your masculinity
24:58
is fluid and that you're comfortable with it then you're integrated and you're at peace and you can you can hold
25:05
space for other people to do that in their lives as well too and so that's what I would say is like we're between
25:10
stories there's you know multiple masculinities and a breath of that and then when you can sit in that you get
25:17
like the piece of of being an integrated man I like that phrase integrated man
25:23
and and and again to your point it looks different for us in different roles and some people would would say okay well
25:29
that's just a mask you live which to to to a degree we all put on masks in different you know like when I'm in this
25:36
mode or if I'm doing public speaking or I'm at an event I have a I have a different
25:41
countenance you know the way I greet people and all that that is slightly different it's not that much different
25:47
which actually can get me in trouble sometimes um but obviously the tenderness that I have with with my wife
25:54
and those kind of things are not going to be heavy in those in in those environments because it just didn't fit
26:00
but it it's it's with like maxed out man for example and the coaching we do and all that one of the things we're
26:05
navigating is that we you know we have kind of several we have three pillars we have the man which is health and fitness
26:11
sleep stress all those things that kind of your physicality side um then Mission
26:17
which is your legacy your purpose and those kind of things and then we have marriage and it's it's not a it's a
26:23
servant leader it's it's servant leadership and it's it's being a loving
26:28
leader right like it's so it's it's this way of of um kind of navigating that but
26:34
also like we may have a coach we're doing this new coaching program that we're doing our kickoff call tonight and
26:39
one of the guys is a good friend of mine he has no desire to go to the weight room like I do six days a week and and
26:45
try to be fit and muscular he could lose a little bit of weight he knows that he knows that he's
26:52
not as healthy as he can be so that may look like hiking or or some sort of
26:58
sports or something like that but like I'm not going to say in order to be fit
27:04
and healthy you have to you have to have X number percentage of body fat and be
27:09
muscular right and so that that is just a physicality aspect of what you're talking about but the way I emote is
27:16
going to be different than the way other other men emote um and it's a funny story and I probably told this before
27:23
but my my kids call my my kids typically go to Michelle my wife for more of the nurturing I want to talk
27:30
about this for 30 minutes you know go through each little aspect of it which I can do also but I also tend to be the
27:37
guy and they say this they're like Dad I need you to give me the don't be stop being a little talk which is you
27:44
know which is a very aggressive way to say hey I need some tough love because I tend to be more pragmatic and all that
27:50
which is like stop watching Netflix and go do your homework or you're going to fail this class and so that's like
27:56
simple advice but all that to say it's really interested that interesting that you say integrated man and integrated
28:03
masculinity because that's really what we're all striving for in this space right like we want men and young men to
28:09
have that yeah absolutely and I think the only thing that I would like push back a
28:14
little bit is is you know let why do we have to use the word of mask in this
28:19
situation or that situation right like you have I don't know you know the joke about like facial muscles and there's so
28:25
many muscles to make you smile so many to make you whatever right we have all those muscles right we don't need to put a different
28:31
mask on top we fluidity in how we show up um so that we don't need to just be a
28:39
hard ass at like you said it even how you are with your your kids you can step into the like I'm like I bet if your
28:46
daughter came to you and she said dad like I have a problem I know you're default like Mom's not available mom's
28:53
driving a rally race rally race right now and and she's not available I have this issue dad and I know your
29:00
default is to be a problem solver but I really just want you to like hear me out and ask me how I feel in that moment you
29:06
can be like got it I can do that right y I do that with my own wife like I'll even ask her when she tells me a story
29:12
is this something you want me to try to help you solve or you just need my ears
29:18
basically and my you know and my arms in order to give you a hug right like that's the that's the difference between
Strength and Flexibility in Masculinity
29:24
those two things perfect and that's exactly it is just how do we give
29:29
ourselves and other men around us the permission to be fluid like that to me
29:35
you know the CEO who is fearless and is driving you know outcomes Etc but then
29:42
has a bad year says call and really Sor 10% of the workforce and get emotional
29:48
about it and so that's the same person because he contains multitudes and
29:54
because we see that authenticity and integration of like the fearlessness and
29:59
the the The Compassion that like wow we we have such respect and admiration for
30:05
that yeah and I like that you called me out a little bit on the mask thing because first of all I'm not saying that
30:11
masks are a good idea but to your point even if I'm in this environment where I'm I'm putting on my like I call it
30:18
being on right like I've got I got I have friends in TV and and that do a
30:23
different events and all that you kind of have to turn on a particular part of your personality cuz you're more more
30:28
outgoing than you normally would be you kind of have to put on this you know side but however I can I can tell that
30:34
story in this environment and still be vulnerable in the way that I tell that
30:40
story I can I can identify I can have a conversation with a young business owner
30:45
that's in his 20s and and share this is how I screwed up when I was in my 20s
30:50
hell this is how I screwed up two months ago right and have that vulnerability and be able to to open myself up even
30:58
when I'm wearing when I whenever I'm doing having a particular aspect of my personality as the predominant one here
31:06
um I haven't I haven't flushed this out in public so let's let's go through it together but I think there's something
31:11
here that um it's within my line of thinking around Sports so as young athletes we're often
31:19
male athletes we're often taught strength right bench this squat that deadlift this right like just like max
31:26
strength and then often times uh female athletes
31:32
gymnast Etc it's a lot of flexibility like motion and those types of things and we see the strength but then the
31:39
lacking of the flexibility leads often to a lot of injury and then maybe we see the flexibility but lacking the strength
31:45
may not get to some of those physical Feats right so we need something that kind of bridges it and as I've gotten
31:52
older and a bit more broken from all those years playing what's become really
31:57
important to me is mobility and Mobility as I've heard it defined is strength
32:03
through range of motion and so if we take the flexibility
32:08
piece as our emotions and the strength we can still call it strength but if Mobility is strength through range of
32:14
motion how do we have strength through a range of emotions right through our empathy through our compassion through
32:20
our uh stoicism through our uh you know whatever we need right but the problem
32:25
is that we're often just given a hammer as a young man that we can be angry and then everything looks like a nail but
32:32
really we need a full toolkit with a wrench and a screwdriver multiple screwdrivers even right to deal with
32:37
different emot emotional things and then we need that strength through range of motion yeah I really I really like that
32:44
a lot it's um as a well as a guy that
32:49
works out a lot I used to I was a personal trainer earlier in my life and I had I did tons of clients I had like
32:55
13 a day on some days and so I would stretch with each one I was a heck of a lot more flexible than I am now so from
33:02
a physical standpoint that's one thing I I try to work on is to try to incorporate that uh because I'm 51 years
33:09
old um I'm in I'm in pretty good shape I'm probably in the better best shape that I've been throughout my my life and
33:17
I started to realize that having that strength and flexibility is what keeps me from dying whenever I do stupid stuff
33:24
like you know climb up on a ladder that's too high or whatever you know in fall and so but to your to take that
33:32
analogy through right like that's as a as a man having that strength but then being able to be flexible in the way
33:39
that that strength is displayed is something that's super important because
33:44
you know like you said if if if we're walking down the street in a city and somebody steps in steps in front of us
33:51
with a knife you know or a gun or whatever I'm going to stand in front of
33:57
my wife even though if it's a knife she's a boxer could beat the crap out of the guy that is my role right like I'm
34:04
gonna I'm gonna step up and be strong in that way but if after that is all
34:10
settled if she's upset and scared and crying I also need to be able to to put
34:16
my arm around her and comfort her and have her comfort me to say look we almost died and that was bad you know
34:24
and and all the adrenaline dump and all that but I think that that's to take that further analogy to be able to be a
34:31
the whole man you know I had a guess on not too long ago and forgive me because I can't remember which one but talking
34:37
about this wholeness as a man and talking about being your whole man yeah and I think that might be just even so
34:44
another word for the integrated piece and I think the important part is also and I'm not saying that you were
34:51
implying this but I always think about like okay we put ourselves in this like hero position of like step steing in
34:57
front of our our wife or whatever but the reality was is that if you weren't there and it was your wife and your
35:04
daughter she would step in front of your daughter right 100 it's not it's not like I think sometimes um this
35:11
conversation and again not you but this conversation about masculinity forgets and leaves out the heroic ISM of people
35:18
of other genders as well too and the strength and the ability that they have and that we could call that you know the
35:23
masculinity within them if if we want to choose that language but that's where like I kind of get like what's the point in
35:29
calling this masculine or that fine when these things exist within all of us right that heroic ISM your wife would do
35:35
the exact same thing for your daughter um and I think when we can sit there and
35:40
say that and remind ourselves of those things that goes again to that like flexibility we have within the the
35:46
definition that it doesn't have to just be about us and about other men but it can be about people and how we show up
35:54
well and to your point and and I love to be able to tell these stories having the wife that I have right like because I
36:02
because there is no and we we are in the automotive space we my wife has done a
36:07
done three builds that are all female Automotive builds and these are welders
36:13
And Trades women and Painters and mechanics and all like these are the baddest of the bad when it comes to
36:19
women in the trades they're just they're just awesome at what they do and they tend to be pretty badass girls also and
The Role of Women in Masculinity
36:25
my wife kind of Falls into that category but yet she can put on her feminine you know she is also very feminine but to
36:32
your point if she was there in that same situation she's perfectly capable of stepping up and doing those there are
36:40
some physicality Straits I you know with with men and women there's a difference
36:45
um and I think in some ways like you know most firemen most firefighters are
36:51
men all the jobs that tend to be the highest RIS highest you know like like
36:57
and I think it's because we get dumber with more testosterone maybe so we sign up for that stuff but there you know
37:04
with the traditional more traditional but that doesn't that doesn't diminish the strength of women in this case right
37:11
like it doesn't I'm not here saying if I step in front of my wife it's because she's too weak to handle it I'd step in
37:17
front of my wife because of my servant leadership role because that's how I see
37:23
my job right like that's part of my job I'm I'm one I open my wife's car door every time
37:29
like that's my I feel like that that's part of serving her and showing her love and she loves it like that's just part
37:35
of our deal um so I was rambling a little bit but that that kind of I'm trying to illustrate your point as
37:42
well yeah totally I mean like I guess for me it's just about like
37:49
um the statistics definitely bear out what we're saying that that men are are predominantly in those roles and those
37:56
types of things but uh I just don't take it as the default anymore you know like because there's always the anecdote that
38:03
that kind of uh we'll break that bold like you know we look at what's going on in in the Middle East and this isn't a
38:09
politics podcast and I don't want to get into that necessarily but like you know the IDF the Israeli Defense Force all
38:15
Israeli citizens unless they're like Ultra Orthodox Jews have to serve so women serve in the military as well too
38:21
so like they they uh show that same like bravery and and uh courage and those
38:28
types of things and you know we see women that are just like so badass in in
38:34
like Midwifery and working at all hours and helping bring these children into the world and you know like there's
38:41
there's just all those sorts of things so I just don't take it in like absolutes and I know that we're all like socialized in these ways and you know I
38:48
walk with my partner down the road and if the like sidewalk is narrow I like always walk on the road side right just
38:54
because like that's really drilled in to me but um I think I gotta I I just kind of
38:59
acknowledge like you know this is something my grandmother taught right like it's a it's a a lesson learned and
39:05
it works but like you know it just doesn't need to be the default always
39:10
yeah I'm curious to that point how you view doing what you do how you view
39:17
chivalry I grew up in the South Texas and Oklahoma which is actually not the traditional South we call it the
39:23
Heartland or whatever but kind of in the Southern Culture and same thing uh I joke and say it's
39:29
because I'm more heavily insured but like I always walk on the street side if we walk together it was it's just what I
39:37
do um I open doors for people you know men and women but you know that's that's
39:44
the key then right it's just yeah I'll I mean I'll hold the door open for for guys just like you know it just because
39:50
it's civil and and there is a chalous component to that but I think we're
39:56
we've almost begun to demonize chivalry because there's the
40:02
Assumption and I know women you know some women get really bent out of shape if you open the door for them which I
40:07
think is dumb but it's because somehow we've demonized
40:13
kindness the kindness that exists in Chivalry we've almost demonized it to that the reason I opened this like what
40:20
man thinks the reason I'm open this door is because I think you're too weak to open your own door I don't know anybody
40:27
but yeah so I'm I'm Canadian they joke about us that we like awkwardly hold doors like if you're if you're almost
40:33
like too far away we'll hold the door for you you gota kind of like right um so there's that joke about
40:41
us but I guess this is what I would I would break this down as and and you you
40:46
set me up perfectly for this um there's a difference between chivalry and kindness and I think chivalry
Chivalry and Kindness
40:53
historically was this like to I'll be really crude like to getting
41:01
laate right like you do these you do these things because um it'll show you
41:07
as you know kind considerate you pick up the tab you do these types of things and then at the end of it I'm supposed to
41:13
like you enough to like sleep with you those right so there's kind of like a loaded to that like chivalry TI tip for
41:21
T tip for Tat no pun in tendon exactly so there's that but then if we if we
41:27
like take that kindness out of chivalry and we just say this is what I do like
41:34
if you're struggling with like you're you're you're a big strong dude 51 years old imagine you know you're traveling
41:40
with your wife and you have like four heavy suitcases and they're coming out at the arrivals gate and like you just
41:46
pulled one and you're struggling to grab the other one if I'm standing beside you I'll help you grab that next one just to
41:51
make sure that you get your suitcase and that's a kindness right I'll hold the door for you because you're pushing the cart and you got like four suitcases and
41:58
so I think it's loaded when it's like with the expectation of like you're
42:04
supposed to like me or value me because I'm acting this way versus just a kindness of like regardless of gender
42:12
I'm going to like help you grab that bag hold that door you know I've been in situations you know I'm behind someone
42:18
and their debit card isn't working or something I'll be like it's five bucks like let me pick it up for you whatever
42:23
right like it's you know like there's I think chivalry had has its
42:29
connotations I don't hate the word I'm not going to like rail against it or whatever but if it's like just kindness
42:35
to people like there's nothing wrong with that yeah and because in my like that's an interesting I've never
Kindness and Chivalry
42:42
actually heard that before because I just don't you know the the way I Define chivalry is kind of like your grandmother taught you right like there
42:48
are certain there's just certain behaviors that you that you can that you do towards Humanity um and you know how
42:56
do we navigate that though right like as like I think a lot of men now especially men my age is 40 plus that kind of grew
43:04
up with that same teaching they're almost afraid to be kind to women because because of like we
43:12
don't know like I'm not because I figure if you have a problem with me open the door that's your problem I'm still doing
43:18
it because I'm trying to be nice to you but but a lot of men are not like that right like I'm just but how like how do
43:25
we how do men navigate it like how do they know what to do so I think I think
43:31
this is where some of our like socialized masculinity gets in the way right like because like a message that I
43:37
got from a young age was don't be vulnerable right um if you are unsure of what to do
43:45
that puts you in a vulnerable position so you could never admit but imagine going out on first dat and um like just
43:53
getting vulnerable and the check comes or you're ask for the check or something and say listen like I grew up with my
44:00
grandmother telling me to pick up the bill this is a first date how do you want to do this yeah right like it's
44:07
just like here's here's where I'm coming from I'm acknowledging that we're kind of between these stories right now what
44:13
M what makes you comfortable yeah right and like on the one hand that's a man
44:19
leaning into the vulnerability but on the other hand that could be perceived as like wow this guy's like in touch
44:25
with like what's going on he's willing to like name it and like name what his Stakes are and maybe it's like you pick
44:31
up the bill I'll take us for dessert or you know let's split the bill this time or you get it this time I had such a
44:37
great time I'll get it next time you know it just it gives the other person agency to like work with it as well too
44:44
and it's a great test for like communication connection like all those types of things so we think that we're
44:50
losing something by naming our vulnerability and our uncertainty but we're actually gaining a lot
44:57
yeah because I mean if you don't have those conversations you just you're making assumptions right and that's you
Navigating Uncertainty
45:02
know having being married for 30 years I just recorded a podcast a couple hours ago and we were talking about
45:08
communicating you know things that are bothering you or things that and you know I've been with my wife for 30 years
45:14
and we still learn all the time she's like well yeah this happens or this is something you do and I just thought it
45:21
was kind of the way that it would always be and I'm like no if I know that I can make that change like I'm fixable I'm
45:28
trainable as I I joke and say I'm trainable but that's actually kind of true like I can
45:34
retrain my behaviors to better serve her as my wife um strength through range of
45:40
motion right right yeah and to be able to continue to work on like flexibility is something that just isn't maintained
45:47
you have to it just you don't just stretch twice and now you're flexible for the rest of your life you have to
45:52
continue to do that especially if you're active because your muscles want to contract and be tight so you have to
45:59
constantly and I think that you know again if we play up that analogy a little bit more like that's our that's
46:04
our traditional upbringing or whatever we went through or any of that kind of
46:09
stuff that that shapes that but we have to constantly kind of work on those things uh in order to be a whole an
46:17
integrated man we'll use that we'll use that phrase yeah and I think like
46:22
another thing that we're taught as men is that we should know the answer we
46:27
should be certain right and so I think that's something that we're struggling with in this time of being between
46:32
stories as well too is like I'm not certain who should pick up the to I'm not certain how should hold the door but
46:40
I think you know some of the jiujitsu that often try to do is like do we have the courage to be vulnerable do we have
46:47
the strength to like change right uh because those are things that we aspire to be and so it's like you know if you
46:53
can't have the conversation on you know your first second date whatever it is about how we're going to split the tab
46:59
or whatever when the stakes are much higher later in your relationship and you're expecting a child how are you going to
47:05
talk about like who's going to stay home or go to work or what what's a comfortable split for you and your
47:10
family right like these are things that you need to be working on throughout the duration of your
47:16
relationship yeah 100% And I think I think it would be I think as we go through like like
47:23
you said being between stories men are trying to navigate this but I think women are also trying to navigate it right like that's something that's super
47:29
important I saw this Tik Tok yesterday which was basically it's a it's a young 20-some complaining that her date did
47:37
not just pick up the check and and then someone someone kind of did that duet thing you know with it
47:45
and they're like so here you are telling everybody what a badass woman you are independent don't need a man all these
47:51
things and now you're complaining that that same man didn't pick up the check for you on the first date right and so
47:57
like this women have to be vulnerable also to try to like we're we're trying to navigate both of us are trying to
48:04
navigate what this looks like and I'm not in the dating scene obviously but but throughout you know in talking to my
48:11
daughter and all of those things it's it's you know something that's that's the women have to take just as much
48:17
responsibility I think as we do right yeah and this is where like I think it's a really liberating conversation so um
48:24
you know you have glance through some of our work stuff and whatnot like I use the word patriarchy very liberally and
Courage to Be Vulnerable
48:30
because to me that's the system right I got to in order to change the system and the culture I gotta I got to name the
48:36
system and the culture but often when we use the word patriarchy people think of you know a group of old hooded men that
48:43
are like pulling these puppet strings and making the world go as it is but you know we all existed just as we all exist
48:50
in capitalism and women and mothers play a huge role in upholding the system as
48:56
it is right two quick examples building even on what you said around sharing the check or whatever on the dating scene
49:02
you go on some women's profiles or whatever and it's like I don't want to talk to you unless you're six feet six
49:08
figures six inches right and you're like okay like you're putting men into a box
49:14
of like what serves you like you're upholding the system there and then another example I think of uh my buddy
49:22
uh some years ago ran a sock company and I think I helped him with like a Christmas Market or something like that
49:27
and there was these awesome like Saved by the Bell Socks they were kind of like turquoise and purple and they had
49:32
squiggles and zags and whatnot and this little boy comes running up and he's super excited grabs them he's like Mom
49:38
look at these socks and she goes no those are girl socks right interesting yeah and it's
49:45
like it's not like when we're complaining about these things and being between stories and these types of
49:51
things it's not just like vilifying men it's talking about the the system and the culture that we have that leads to
49:57
these outcomes and absolutely women and you know trans non-binary people we're
50:02
we're all navigating this together and we all have a role to play in yeah for sure yeah I I'd love Save By the Bell
50:10
Socks it was s awesome first of all I have a bunch of socks that are purple and pink and yellow and all kinds of
50:16
stuff but yeah it's funny that you mentioned that first one because I don't know if you've seen them but you'll see
50:21
these interviews with these young women that will be listing these things out have to make over $150,000 a year and
50:28
then you know all of those things and and then like they will put up the percentage of men that actually satisfi
50:34
it's like two and a half percent of men F and so like good luck what you're you
50:41
know and and good luck finding that man who who fits that very materialistic you
50:49
know criteria and it's funny because a lot of times the the girls that are saying that don't mean any you know
50:56
if you ask the guy kind of what what his ideal none of them meet those ideals on the on the other side of things which is
51:03
ridiculous on both sides right but but yeah it's like we we have these we're
51:08
just we're all just making this crap up as we go along quite honestly right yeah and I think like in that there's a lot
51:15
of power too if if we're making it up that means we can make it up in a different way right like yeah these
51:21
conversations do change over time and place they were different 100 years ago they're different in Saudi Arabia like
51:28
they like you know we we we get to be like there's power in saying right and
51:34
having those conversations yeah for sure yeah this has been super interesting um I don't
51:40
know if we talked about the things you wanted to talk about but if there is but we talked about a ton of stuff and I I'm
Shared Responsibility
51:47
really encouraged to know that there are men out there teacher women to that are out there trying to fa facilitate this
51:54
growth and to help men you know be more integrated and and to be better versions
52:02
of themselves right like that's our whole objective with maxed out man is to help you and you know obviously we will
52:08
take a particular path that we try to teach men to do that but but we are with
52:13
this podcast and with people we bring in it's it's really that more integrated side of things and uh I really
52:19
appreciate your perspective um and how do we find you how do we find more information about what you got going on
52:25
and learn more about you yeah so nextjet manca that's uh that's us theca we're a
52:32
Canadian organization we are growing a little over the Border as well too we have a Weekly Newsletter that goes out
52:39
called the future of masculinity and you actually subscribe to that.com and then you want to connect
52:46
with me I'm Jak Ka and I'm happy to
52:52
connect there appreciate you Kevin for for facilitating these these conversations and and the work you do to
52:58
to help men find uh a way to inte to being integrated thanks I really enjoy
53:04
these it's these are conversations that I ordinarily would never have probably and so this is this is open up a new
53:11
world for me by being able to have a lot of these conversations so I appreciate you being willing to come on and share
Power to Create Change
53:17
um yeah so find Find Jake at all those I'll put those in uh the show notes as well if you're interested in more stuff
53:22
about Max outman go to max out man.com find us on socials and uh make sure you check out some of our free challenges
53:29
and other materials that we have so thanks Jake I appreciate you man have a great day thanks YouTube
53:35
brother if you're looking to really maximize your life and become the man you were made to be head over to maxed
53:42
out man.com and get your journey started [Music]
53:49
today.