Episode 57 - Unmasking Masculinity: Adventure, Storytelling, and Emotional Wellness - Dr. Jason Frishman

Dr. Jason Frishman, a psychologist and founder of Journeymen, discusses the importance of vulnerability and connection in men's mental health. He explores the impact of toxic masculinity on boys and the need for emotional intelligence in men. 

Dr. Frishman also highlights the role of shame in men's mental health and the power of adventure therapy in helping clients. He emphasizes the importance of storytelling and narrative therapy in shaping men's lives. The conversation delves into the challenges of navigating cultural perceptions of masculinity and balancing traditional masculinity with modern ideologies.

Takeaways

• Vulnerability and connection are crucial for men's mental health.
• Toxic masculinity can have a damaging impact on boys and men.
• Emotional intelligence is essential for men to navigate their emotions and relationships.
• Adventure therapy can be a powerful tool in helping individuals overcome challenges.
• Storytelling and narrative therapy can shape men's lives and help them live more fulfilling stories.
• Shame plays a significant role in men's mental health and should be addressed.
• Humor can be a valuable tool for men to connect and express themselves.
• Men should strive for authenticity and emotional expression in their lives.
• Balancing traditional masculinity with modern ideologies is important for personal growth.
• Creating safe spaces for emotional expression is crucial for men's well-being.

About Jason

Jason is a psychologist, and is the founder and  lead guide of JourneyMen, which inspires committed, well-balanced men to successfully journey through life with responsibility, meaning and intention. 

Jason is a husband and father (2 boys!) He is a men's coach and psychologist;  an adventurer and creative cook; and an everyday lover of stories! For over 25 years, his mission has to been to help boys, men and families live connected and adventurous lives, everyday! Our lives are made up of so many stories; he helps men to both write nd live their preferred stories.

He helps fathers struggling to balance work and family become more confident, connected, and fully alive.

To learn more about Maxed Out Man and to maximize your potential, visit www.maxedoutman.com or connect with us on Social Media:

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Transcript

0:00
Welcome to maxed out man helping you
0:06
become the man you were made to
0:12
be hey guys this Kevin Davis from the max outman podcast this is episode number 57 I'm here with Dr Jason frisman
0:19
Jason is a psychologist and is the founder and Lead guide of journeyman uh Journey men which is which inspires uh
0:27
committed well-balanced men to successful journey through life with responsibility meaning and intention
0:33
Jason's also the hus a husband and father of two boys I have two girls so that'll be an interesting discussion
0:39
he's a men's coach and psychologist an adventurer and creative cook and an
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everyday lover of stories for over 25 years his mission has been to help boys men and families live connected and
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adventurous lives every day our lives are made up of so many stories and he helps men to both write and live their
0:56
preferred stories and helps fathers struggling to balance work family and family to become more confident
1:03
connected and fully alive I love I love every bit of that so I'm pretty excited to have you on um this is this is right
1:11
up my alley as far as you know information that I love to gather and people I love to talk to so I appreciate
1:16
you coming on board absolutely no it was great when we first met and and sort of chatted initially and you know I'm
1:22
reading that bio and I'm like oh man I should get a little more concise but yeah all of those things are a lot of fun to hear I'll tell you that
1:30
well you know it's funny because that does I'm sure that that doesn't even scratch the surface so you know fill us
1:36
in on like your history how you got here um what you do now kind of what your
1:42
passions are uh along the way uh we have as long as you want to take so don't feel like you need to be that concise I
1:49
love hearing I love hearing the the different stories because that adds the foundation for what where our discussion
1:54
goes absolutely no that would be great so you know how I got here it's interesting because friends of mine I'm
2:02
fortunate enough to have friends from childhood that I'm still very close with and they'll laugh because they're like
2:07
you are doing exactly what we you know figured you might be doing with a few shifts right like so you know I have um
2:16
so I'm living in Vermont I came from New York originally I was in the suburbs of New York City and from about 13 I used
2:25
to say I'm going to live in Vermont like I knew that I went to a summer camp here as a kid and was in love like really
2:32
like I I love this area I I I love the winter um you know really I knew that so
2:39
much so that that is almost I I could say that's how I met my wife right um I
2:46
went to long long long story but I went to a conference specifically for a
2:51
particular Workshop I met the workshop presenters it was a couple and they were
2:56
inviting me they were like oh well you should move out to Oregon to to work with us and I was like well no my heart's in Vermont I'm going to move
3:02
there after I graduate and they said oh are you single our niece lives in
3:08
Vermont at which point this couple refused to talk to me about anything other than will I meet their niece and
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you know eight months later we were we were living together so that's awesome yeah that's great yeah
3:22
it is a it's a wonderful part of the story and I've always wanted to be in Vermont um and it was circuitous I you
3:29
know I I went to undergrad up in in Northwestern New York in Buffalo I went
3:34
to graduate school in um you know Georgia and then Boston I live I worked
3:40
in New Hampshire for a long you know so I was all over the place and my first grad program made the most sense in
3:46
terms of people who know me was for something called Adventure therapy so I have a degree in in something called
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Adventure therapy which is a very little known you know um practice although it's
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it's International and it's gotten pretty big but that was for me I love
4:03
the outdoors I love um adventuring in general as a concept you know that's
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been a a massive part of my life as has always been stories and books so
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adventures and stories is the foundation of who I am and all of the work I do
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right um I like to joke that um many
4:26
professions you know a carpenter has their tools that Hammer that this you know um all the different professions
4:32
have tools in my profession I'm the tool like my wife says in our marriage
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I'm I'm the tool so I don't know that's the same thing I mean sometimes it feels
4:44
like it yes um but but that's really important because who I am has a huge
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part of the type of work I do and how I choose to work do the work I do and so
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you know I my my masters was a real focus on adventure therapy my doctor I
5:00
focused on something called narrative therapy so now I'm a licensed Adventure Storyteller or storytelling Adventure
5:08
however you'd want to be and um yet the the interesting thing was in 1999 I I
5:15
hike the Appalachian Trail or most of it um and about three quarters of the way
5:20
through I had this Epiphany on a mountain that I needed to go do more traditional based therapy just to
5:26
compare just to see what that's like came off the mountain like that day called my parents who said oh well you
5:33
were just offered a job in Boston okay so after living in the woods
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for five and a half months three days later I'm in Dorchester you know Massachusetts living there and working
5:45
in the school systems um and my big question always was when I am doing
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offering Therapy Services in a school where my therapy office is literally a bathroom with a desk over it over the
5:58
toilet oh my God or or a locker room or the space under a stairwell or whatnot
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how can I do Adventure therapy because that's really what I believe in that's you know that's how I sharpened my tool and um the the answer
6:13
really was metaphor right how do what is the metaphor what is the The Narrative
6:18
the stories of Adventures and Journeys that I can bring into the office with me
6:23
and so that started you know all the way up and then you know eventually moving to Vermont and I I have a a
6:30
Psychotherapy practice here where again I'm in an office right and you know friends of mine from the adventure
6:36
therapy world are like how do you deal with that you're not in the woods you're not and I said well I still go for myself but therapy is an inventure of
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itself every hour on the hour all day I get to go somewhere different with a client right and then developing the
6:51
stories and the narratives of of these adventure and journey metaphors and using them as a way of engaging with men
6:59
and boys boys and families and and um helping them to live their own adventures and to really become the
7:05
heroes and main characters in their own stories so that's that's really the main
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over you know the overall piece of what I do but the recently last four or five
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years I've been doing coaching specifically for dads using a model I've created around what I call foundational
7:22
adventures and basically how dads can be connected at home much more sort of sustainably and powerfully with the
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people they purport to love the most that's oh I love I love it I want to dig
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into can you kind of describe the difference between what you were doing before with Adventure therapy I'm out
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here in Montana so Adventure therapy sounds awesome um and yeah we we'll
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we'll talk we'll talk offline about some other ideas I have but um can you kind of contrast what and just give me more
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give give us more information about what you're talking about in terms of like I'm in an office I could still be on an
8:01
adventure with each session and all that can you kind of give me a little bit more info on that absolutely um you know
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this took a lot of thinking about what is an adventure and what is a journey and how how are they related and
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different all of these things and very sort of in a oversimplified way an
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adventure is something where there is some level of perceived a real
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risk you don't know what the ending is going to be like you have some
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supportive characters some main characters there's a goal things like that and so for many years it was okay
8:39
well there is the adventure of Life there is adventure of the seasons and the years there's the anything that
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cyclical has Adventure baked into it and stories we're always taught stories have
8:51
a beginning middle and end and um frankly I think that's you know such a
8:57
constructed way of looking at it because frankly unless everyone is born at the beginning of your story and everyone dies at the end
9:02
of the story there's a backstory and there's a next story so all stories are just the middle okay and so if I can
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look at our session as an adventure in and of itself how can I structure what
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we're going to talk about how we're g to do things what we're going to explore right within that hour and we
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can man we can construct a beginning middle and end for our little middle and
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the the the challenges right the risk the challenges the things that the
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characters need to go through are meaning the client and I are the issues we're working on right they're the the
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things that want the obstacles that are in the way for the the clients I work with and so um another element of
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Adventure is there's an active there's an activity right so we don't always do that in my office you know I'm certainly
9:56
like my office even though I think we I do think things very differently we're still often sitting in chairs looking
10:02
and talking to one another but at the same time there's an activity in the
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mind there is certainly we I have done activities with clients um I can tell
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you about the time I taught a client how to debone a chicken during a session and we were able to use that as a metaphor
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for the issues that he's working on that's a whole other story but small I want I want to hear that story after you
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finish this one for sure because I think that's super cool yeah you know uh small
10:31
activities within you know for an hour session or for longer now that I'm doing some coaching work but it's this idea of
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how can we take the concepts the overall pieces of what i is involved in adventure and
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bring it into our everyday moments and you know that's then developed even further because now I question a lot of
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what we think of as an adventure what's an adventure and um I don't know if you you've heard of and or your listeners
11:00
but the you know the concept of the hero's journey that something okay so hero's
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journey for anyone who may not know is very simple right there's a hero main character who either gets kicked out or
11:12
called out of their home place to go on some sort of quest they go into a different area a different realm a
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different whatever they have all sorts of challenges they climb the mountain they battle a dragon you know all of
11:23
those things and they find the the treasure the magic object whatever it is and then they do everything backwards to
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get home where they're either you know celebrated or pushed out because they
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don't even recognize them because all the changes that happen in there I love that story right I'm a big Star Wars
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dork I'm I love Lord of the Rings like you know I like that story but someone who thinks probably
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more deeply than most about the idea of Adventures and and Journeys I really had to start thinking questioning that right
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why is part as an aside a part of narrative therapy is questioning taken
12:03
for granted stories in our lives right when I ask people about the
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hero's journey I think oh yeah course of course right and so even though I love it I wrote my dissertation using that as
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the main me metaphor right even though I love it I had to question this why is this the only story you know for years I
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would ask people at workshops and clients and say what's your favorite adventure story live or fictional or
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real and I always got the same answer some version of the hero's journey and
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for a long time I just Pat myself in the back I was like good I'm on the right track and that's
12:39
awesome and then I started really doing a lot of research into men and men's development and men in our culture and
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and the history of masculinity and came to something that you know frankly it
12:51
was very strange to do knowing how much I love this narrative but I actually think that the fact that this Hero's
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journey is so everywhere it's omnipresent it's you know every Pixar movie the vast majority of Disney movies
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you know almost every hero Blockbuster movie that's out it's all the same narrative so much that the person who
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coined that term s called it the monomyth said it is the one story but he was
13:20
wrong and you know there are other stories in the history of our you know
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folk oral Traditions that are not that narrative and I've come to really believe that the
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fact that the hero's journey is so much everywhere in our culture is actually quite damaging to boys and men
13:39
specifically and subsequently right damaged boys and men become damaging boys and
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men and so this becomes a big underlying piece of the work I do which is not
13:51
throwing away the hero's journey because I still love it but opening up other elements other
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stories other teaching models other ways of looking at how to
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be that can really help men and boys have a whole expression of of who they
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are as humans as as as people right and so I don't know what got me on that but
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that you know so this idea of of questioning the hero's journey holding on to it my original company was called
14:21
Adventures other half right it's what else is there besides this one story
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that is guiding so much of what's going on in our culture um you know the hero's
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journey although it is lovely and it has wonderful elements of growth and development and all those things it also
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pretty much talks about might makes right history is written by the Victor um you know there is no Grays it's black
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and white thinking there's only good and evil there's you know there's some real challenges and even if the main
14:53
character happens to be a woman you know there's a lot of that you know there's a lot of diversity being put into this
14:59
narrative it's still a very masculine energy in the idea of I go off and I do
15:05
things and I fix things and I you know and and there's nothing wrong with that inherently but it's not the only way to
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be and if it's the only story we get you know go ahead sorry I was just asking if
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you could dig into that a little bit more and I just want to understand what you mean by that's a that's a damaging
15:23
because I can I can see how you know good guys always win and we beat people
15:29
up and I mean all those movies that I love right like my one of my favorite movies is if stuff blows up people get
15:35
beaten up and there's irreverent humor like those are you could give me any movie and I will watch it whether it's
15:41
the worst movie ever made or not you know oh yeah but but but I'm interested
15:47
in knowing kind of how that damage manifests itself um as we I mean like
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you're right that is the that is the story and we weave that story throughout
15:59
stuff we're doing a marriage Workshop this week marriage man and Mission and one of the things we talk about in terms
16:04
of marriage is being um being her the hero in her story right like that's I
16:12
wanna as a husband I want to be the hero in her story and that can mean you know again and we're not saying that means
16:18
you ride a white horse and you know beat up your neighbors and and all that kind of stuff but it's it's that it's that
16:24
concept of being a hero because I think most men in general want to be a hero um
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but I'd just like to know kind of your what what you mean by that mentality or
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that manifestation can be damaging especially to boys and I do want to dig into boys uh as well so oh absolutely I
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mean here's the thing right like of course I I want to be the hero for my wife I also want her to be the hero for
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me and you know the so so this idea of it is that you know again black and
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white thinking good-look people you know like there is a a the values are often
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very interesting um but there's also in inherently inherent in the the hero's
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journey narrative is a dominance-based sort of ideology I'm gonna conquer okay
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I'm gonna I'm gonna go off and beat the dragon I'm gonna you know and even though these the they've been shifted a
17:21
little bit maybe they befriend the dragon or whatever but there's this like we're gonna Manifest Destiny we're going to go off and Conquer right
17:28
um and there's you know there's been a lot of research and work done that like while sometimes that's necessary of
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course it's actually these do a dominance-based cultural
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organization has has really led to a lot of um in-group outgroup work you know
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where we're better than them we other other people there you know there the the the the majority is is is just
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better than the minority in many ways like right if we can dominate we're better we we're clearly more powerful
18:02
we're you know we deserve more you know there there's so much to that so that's one thing the other piece I think is
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there's a term uh called manbox culture is that something you've come across I
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have I'd love to hear about it though so quickly so manbox culture was was coined
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years ago I'm not going to get the whole history I used to know this but basically manbo culture was basically a
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a a term coined for sort of mainstream masculine culture where you
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know you've got to be tough you've got to be strong you've got to be pretty
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much in charge of your emotions and that's actually speaking generously right like or don't have them at all
18:45
right push them away um and you know there is a a certain sort of character
18:53
that men quote need to fit into and if and especially boys and if
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they don't there actually are sort of social ramifications you know the way I
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talk about it is as a culture and this is not every individual you may be different individuals may be different but as a culture you know I the way I
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talk about it is you know as young as two and three years old we systemically and systematically Bully boys into the
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boy into the men's box the men's box there's a a woman who did this a w wonderful researcher named naobi wayi
19:27
who researched boys and boys friendships and for the most part you know one story
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that always breaks my heart was she's interviewed this this young kid I forget how young four or five who said yeah no
19:38
I'm friends with the girls but don't tell anybody because then the boys won't let me play with them right and we have
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this thing where teenagers who have earlier had really great close male friends start to drift apart right way
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they and they they push it away because the another element of the man box is anything is that that seem as feminine
19:59
or homosexual or whatever is seen as less than right and I mean if we think
20:05
about what are the most common slurs that guy that boy teenage boys call one another and they are mostly all some
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version of a put down that is feminized right I I I don't feminized or
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or homosexual right like that those are the those are the insults that teen boys tell one another which is an interesting
20:26
message to like share about all of the other humans that we
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come into contact with right and so this idea that you know the hero's journey
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reinforces that ever so slightly right like I love it I still I watch those movies right like I sometimes on my own
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my wife goes to bed I'm gonna watch a movie I want explosions good-look people you know like I'm
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there and at the same time you know what it does it also elevates
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this going off to Adventure right the the the men that I see in my in my
21:05
office right if I'm not epic if I'm not legendary then what am I because the
21:10
other piece of the the um the hero's journey is we don't really hear much
21:15
about the people who go to work every day and are tending the fields or keeping the Hearth burning or wiping the
21:21
butts and cleaning the toilets and you know in fact all of that is seen as less than you know you're either a prince a a
21:28
hero a king or a peasant right and most of the peasant
21:35
work is stuff that we see is women's work which is denigrated and put down
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right and so this idea that you know men who you know get up go to work even like
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a lot of my clients do really well at work they're incredibly successful they're they're powerful right they're
21:53
going off on their hero's journey but then and I I don't use this as marketing and this is sort of very tongue and
21:59
cheek but I often joke that my my my favorite or perfect clients all have
22:05
hemorrhoids because they come home and they hide in the bathroom right and like they're not as
22:12
connected to the home life for many reasons that we're not even aware of for many reason that that are that are sort
22:18
of implicit that we're not like being sort of overtly talking about with our
22:26
partners or or being aware of or and it's often not specific to the chore
22:32
right I have a friend of mine who heard me talk about this once and was like well I clean and do most the cooking and
22:37
I do like this and I'm like yeah you're right but how much of the conversation between you and your partner are are you
22:45
having around like you know this happened when we were over there for dinner and you know he was saying like I
22:50
do a lot of the home stuff I was like great did you know we were coming over tonight did you have to like rearrange
22:58
your schedule you know we got there and he was still at work right did you rearrange things to to to to be present
23:05
for us the social things do do you know your doc your kid's Doctor's first name right like the the the so it's not
23:13
specific to women's work men's work it's more specific to how do we create
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Partnerships with our partners and with the people as a you know there there's a woman named Ranna Eiser who is is a real
23:26
hero to me and she put forth this whole idea of dominance-based cultures as opposed to partnership based cultures
23:34
and partnership based cultures existed they they they you know we are often
23:39
told the story that like Heroes Journey ideas are just human nature right it's just human nature that men are strong
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and provide and you know all of this but frankly it's not um that's there's it's
23:51
not a a capital T truth it's not a truth it's a story that we have been shared
23:57
and talked about for for hundreds of years that we can challenge and we can have you know if we look at what's going
24:02
on in the world today right we have domination we have you know all sorts of
24:08
Oppression all sorts of you know from Global to National to family right how
24:14
do we talk to our kids how do we you know Ain you know kids men who frankly
24:20
know they can feel mad bad or angry you know like and I'm exaggerating a little
24:27
bit but yeah yeah right yeah so um yeah there there's a lot to it and and it
24:34
isn't about weakening men or saying like we have to be you know soft or whatever
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but we also can be soft and we also you know the way I the way the metaphor I
24:47
love to use the one that that I I share a lot is if you you know there's a lot of before we get to the metaphor there's
24:53
a lot of talk about the Mental Health crisis right men you know men are men have the highest rates of suicide
24:59
they're dying from heart heart attacks earlier they're you know depression anxiety you know like I have no problem
25:05
filling my therapy practice you know um yeah right yeah boys with depression and
25:10
anger you know school shootings you know violence all of these things there's a mental health crisis right well now to
25:18
the metaphor if we took a plant and put it in a room with no windows no sunlight and didn't water it
25:25
and then the plant died and we said oh my goodness there's there's a plant Health crisis right we've got to create a a
25:33
fertilizer chemical fertilizer that we can sell that will help these plants do
25:39
better in this dark waterless room right that's similar to what we're
25:45
doing here yes there is a mental health crisis but it's a symptom of the fact that we're not giving boys and men what
25:50
they need which is emotional awareness connections loving relationships you
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know um the other half of the hero's journey and and so as a result I see men
26:04
all the time in both my coaching practice and my therapy practice who are really hurting right they don't even
26:10
know what's going on with them inside because they haven't identified the feelings right um I I will say one quick
26:18
story and then I'll I'll be quiet for a minute you know I get excited about this stuff but no you're good you're good you're good I have h i this journeyman
26:28
um started year you know the ideas really came about before the pandemic when I was working p in person in my
26:35
office and I'm sitting with a client who for about 20 minutes was telling me how good of a weekend he had with his
26:41
buddies doing all of the things we probably all could imagine he was doing with his buddies over the weekend on a
26:46
camping trip and I don't I don't judge that I do that I think it's
26:54
lovely but then he got quiet and said yeah you know all that was great but if my wife left me I would have nobody to
27:01
tell wow yeah and the hard part was on the other side of my door in my waiting
27:08
room was a guy who I knew he was there because I've been seeing him for years and he's always early so I knew he was
27:13
sitting there and if I literally was allowed to open the door and introduce these guys they both would have had less
27:20
need of me and they would have had a a social a real true social connection if they were open to it right that right
27:27
would be healing and Curative and and and and supportive in a way that a lot
27:32
of men don't have right and and so to me it was both heartbreaking and motivating
27:39
to really say all right well how can I do this differently how can I support men in a way that can be really and
27:45
truly powerful um and that's where you know in many ways that's skipping head that's
27:51
where journeyman kind of was born and the idea of of saying well we can do both right we can have these big
27:59
wonderful adventures and be strong and be you know all of those things you know I was up last night chopping wood right
28:05
like I'm manly right but at the same time you know you know I taught my boys
28:11
how to fish when they were very young like you know we we do that but at the same time you know I tell them I love
28:18
them every night you know I we we do lots of cuddles I'm I'm the main cook you know we you know and I'm still not
28:24
always getting it right my wife will remind me right like so you know this
28:29
idea that we can we can be more right and we can deepen our stories to really
28:36
Thrive and it makes life more meaningful it makes life you know when we're more
28:43
aligned with the things we give a [ __ ] about can I swear is that all right you know okay so when we're really
28:50
aligned with what we give a [ __ ] about then even the everyday things the
28:56
the everyday Adventures the mundane Elements of Life can be meaningful they
29:01
can be like supportive and nourishing and we can feel better like you know
29:08
it's really quite a powerful but simple idea is that having everyday things like
29:14
cleaning the toilet like shopping wood like cleaning the dishes like you know
29:19
all of these things like connecting with your partner around you know schedules
29:25
and calendars and Doctor you know all of these things if we're really having a true partnership then it strengthens and
29:33
builds and allows us almost that you know if we do the foundational Journeys
29:40
then we're better when we do have a her a hero's journey I'm better with the sword you know I'm better with a I'm
29:46
more you know when I my foundation and my grounding are strong I'm gonna do better when I leave the house in the
29:52
community I'm be more connected I'm going to be doing better at my job I'm going to you know all of those things because I know I don't have to hide in
29:58
the bathroom when I come home yeah for sure uh I'm interested in
30:04
one of the things that you were talking about with this particular client where he's discussing this camping trip sitting around the campfire and all that
30:11
and do you how do you teach men how to have better connections
30:18
I I feel like it's it's fear-based um and it's it's a misunderstanding that
30:24
other guys may want to do this you know had one of one of my guests the title of the episode was Hey I Love You Man and
30:31
it's it's a lot it's it's that concept that you know with my friends and I don't have a lot of friends and I don't
30:38
have a lot of local friends most of my friends you know we spend most time on FaceTime or text or or whatever because
30:45
they're all they're all over the world but we we do talk about real
30:50
serious stuff you know hey how's your marriage how's you know I know last year you were going through this with your
30:56
wife how are things going now what does that look like what did you change what did she change and all that so we talk
31:02
about those deep things but I feel like that you know to your point about this
31:08
kind of um masculine you know this man box ideology there's maybe six guys sitting
31:15
around the campfire and they're all be like you know every single one of them has something that they're facing and
31:20
dealing with and every single one of them is too afraid to say hey yeah anybody else feel like they're wife
31:27
emasculates you or you feel like you're not living up to her expectations or you
31:33
know you're struggling to be a dad or any of those you know all those things that we deal with what does that look
31:40
like how do you bridge how do you get the courage to start that
31:45
conversation in and really it's it's this you know High School
31:53
microcosm right like you talked about teen boys and I I've told people all the time it's like this microcosm that
32:00
exists in junior high and high school is complete BS because it doesn't exist for
32:05
the most part this is this is something that's manufactured but then I think it it can continue into these male male
32:13
relationships I think are just predominantly like that to where look if I if I try to share I'm gonna get made
32:19
fun of or whatever which they're all thinking that and it's all Bs if one person would just speak up if
32:27
one dude would just speak up then everybody opens up so how do how do men
32:32
bridge that Gap and actually take that first step it's that's the question I mean
32:39
you're you know you know I think you and I could talk for hours on that question and probably not come up with the best answer because it it's it is a real
32:46
challenge um you know I joke about it you know I'm a guy who's been doing this kind of work for a long time uh my
32:53
dearest oldest friend someone who I've known since we were 12 um we've been
32:59
close if not best friends Almost that whole time and he's a very sort of aware
33:04
conscientious you know he was a teacher he's like very you know he's a very
33:09
emotionally expressive kind of guy it took us until our 30s until we could say I love you and even then it was I love
33:17
you man I love you man and then it evolved into I love your brother and then it involveed you know we're you
33:24
know I'm almost 50 we I I we have a so I have a buddy I have a buddy of mine that's a little bit older than me and is
33:30
really uncomfortable with I love you man and so what what I will say to him is I
33:36
love you but like not in a weird way right well but because that helps him
33:42
that helps it that helps him feel better right absolutely I mean that's exactly
33:47
it the fact I mean women throw around I love you to like someone they met at the store that day right like you know and
33:54
and Men I mean think about this we have an in our culture we have an entire genre of movies just to make fun of this
34:02
we have bromances right we can't you know we so rarely have movies when men
34:07
have deep emotional real friendships without it being a comedy like we have to make fun of it in order like you know
34:15
um and yeah like the but not a weir way right you know the the the term I think I don't know if I don't know if the kids
34:20
are still using it these days but the whole term no homo right yeah that was a term I don't
34:27
know if it's still being used but it was you know I love you no homo you know those are cool shoes no homo right like
34:33
yeah all right we have to do that and and yet it is so I mean so I was going to say this friend of mine you know I am
34:39
almost 50 and only in the very recent times have like when we we don't live
34:45
nearby you know so when we see each other and then we're saying goodbye like give each other a hug and really just say like I love you I hope you do well
34:51
like you know blah blah blah like and and so you're absolutely right there's fear involved I think there's fear
34:58
there's also an implicit unawareness right like we're not even like fully
35:04
there um and you know but but you're absolutely right I mean I I'll tell you in the therapy practice where I do this
35:11
it's a lot easier because often things are just breaking right like my my wife is leaving me my kids won't talk to me
35:16
I'm getting fired from a job I have an addiction you know things are breaking so they come in and we get to work you
35:23
know um but similar to the plant that mentioned earlier I think men like plants we we need certain things water
35:31
sunlight emotional connection expression awareness to be seen and heard you know all of these things and so once we open
35:39
the door cracked most men that I work with and I've been doing this for about 20 years run
35:45
through and so you're actually right so in the Co in the therapy world you know
35:50
I haven't had to Market I've have been I still turn away more people more men a week than I than I can take in the
35:56
coaching world it's a bigger challenge right because it's not as much about things are broken it's more about I want
36:03
things to be better and Men notoriously are are difficult to engage in Wellness
36:09
fathers even more so because I work with fathers and the interesting thing though is that the guys who go through the
36:16
program [ __ ] love it like they like the moment we get started you can see
36:22
that they're like oh I can do this here and they you know we a we have a text
36:27
thread so that in between coaching sessions they can you know I've been privy to text messages that are more
36:35
emotionally vulnerable than most men have in their conversations every day right and right um so you know how do we
36:42
create it I think part of it is it's a challenge and so we accept that you know that's part of the work that I'm doing
36:48
right is to help like to me there's part of a social action in this is that let's change The Narrative of men masculinity
36:55
and fatherhood so that this is okay so the guys that I'm working with now they're the they're the Pioneers for
37:01
this they they're willing to take the risk right um because it is there is a fear so there is a risk it's it's a it's
37:08
an adventure right like are they willing to take the adventure to slow down and and and learn and be and do this kind of
37:16
thing the other piece is is that I've turned a lot of the metaphors of this work on their head upside down so a vast
37:24
majority of men's programs men's coaching you know men's therapy they actually use the heroes Journey metaphor
37:31
as well you know a lot of them do and it's lovely I feel like you know like I told
37:39
you the the hero's journey is only half the story I need to help then find the first the other half the foundational
37:45
half and so I didn't want my coaching program to look like again we're just using the hero's
37:52
journey and so in a lot of coaching programs men they get together they go
37:57
off together to do something they have a pretty similar goal they get the
38:02
treasure and then they go home and they're better for their families or their work or their executive work or you know I come from the place where you
38:10
know I talk to these dads and I say listen outside of coaching is your adventure your adventure is at home your
38:16
adventure is at work your adventure is with your kids so what is what what are we what are we going to do and I think
38:24
back my favorite aspects of all of the great stories that I've loved as a kid
38:29
um you know Star Wars Lord of the Rings these kinds of things I always loved the
38:35
ins the scenes at the ends or the T the taverns the Cantinas like the the me you
38:40
know even as a kid I you know sword fighting and all that was cool I was a martial artist for a long time but like
38:47
I loved when when people got together and like you know had these these
38:52
meeting places right so why do you go to a Tavern right besides food and drink
38:58
you you go for nourishment right you go to tell and hear stories you go to rest
39:04
you go to fix your equipment or get new equipment you go to celebrate a win or
39:09
or lick your wounds from A Loss you go to find a new Quest you go to get information from the Shady guy in the
39:15
corner right like that's what happens and so the entire overriding metaphor
39:21
for Journeymen is I get to be the host of a virtual in where men come in from
39:27
their adventures and drop their shoulders and get taken care of and have
39:32
a space where they can share stories and be like oh man you gotta hear this or they can get some like Hey try this
39:38
here's something you can try let's sharpen your steel let's you know whatever and then they go back out for their for their you know enjoy their
39:45
adventures and then they have a space they can always come to right so every Tuesday um any of the guys that have
39:51
ever gone through the program there's just an I call it open Gatherings at the end you know like we you know if you've
39:57
gone through the program you can come and and either share a dad joke or get some support for something that's
40:02
blowing up at home or you know just you know or we have conversations around
40:08
masculinity and you know there it's just sort of a it's a free-for-all that anyone who's ever gone through the program has access to right so this
40:15
doesn't ask your question right how do you break the seal yeah I I think there's many ways one is
40:23
questioning it so I do a lot of things I do talks I do a lot of presentations
40:29
I'll do things on social media so there's me doing that there's increasingly allowing people to be more
40:35
aware of the fact that there is a seal like what would happen if um and there's
40:41
just talking about it I mean I I try to get on as many podcasts as possible I you know PE my friends and family know
40:47
that this is my you know sort of one of the three things that I talk about the most um and and it's around raising
40:55
awareness and social activism around this idea that frankly I think it's life
41:01
or death like we have men who are dying because they can't talk about things you know high blood pressure heart attacks
41:08
you know suicide you know and and so even the men who are not at that extreme
41:13
level we all benefit we all benefit from having loving connected you know
41:20
emotional connections with the people we care about so I tell that over and over again
41:26
try to get as many guys around the fire as they can you know well and I love that because those
41:31
conversations need to happen on this podcast we've really had a ton of conversations um I you know one of one
41:38
of the um guests that I've had is uh he's got a podcast called the evolved
41:44
caveman when we talked about you know the feminine energy and yeah John and
41:49
John's awesome and and you know he's been doing stuff with with uh with his
41:55
new girl also which has been which has been awesome to see um but it's and a
42:00
lot of the podcast and this has been something that's really opened my eyes as really to talk through because I natur I kind of naturally do this my
42:07
wife and I have a relationship that's that's pretty um pretty part it's tends
42:13
to be traditional in some ways but untraditional in in other ways you know she's a total badass welder rally car
42:21
driver um you know all these different quote unquote masculine stuff and I've been involved in that side of the coin a
42:28
lot but at the same time like she hates doing the bathrooms and so when we split up house duties on the when we clean our
42:34
house every couple of weeks I do all the bathrooms in the house just my you know so that that that and you know so it's
42:41
it's a little bit less traditional in how that works I really like your your Tavern kind of that conversational thing
42:48
and I was thinking that one of the things that I I tend and part of that
42:54
irreverent comedy part part of a lot of those movies that I like is
42:59
because and I never really thought about this before but it's it's kind of because that's that there's a
43:05
vulnerability in a lot of those kind of things where a lot of times it's it's a it's a character connection through this
43:13
irreverent comedy with each other and it doesn't you know that's you could you could take that as far as you want but
43:19
that's that's something and one of the other things I really like there's a movie with Channing uh Channing Tatum
43:25
you know no no Oscar winning there but Channing I I like his movies um that is
43:31
called dog it's called Dog the movie is about him so the movie
43:37
is about one of the soldiers had died in his unit army guy I think can't remember
43:42
it's Marines or Army so forgive me if I mess that up um but he's he has to take the dog which was a working military dog
43:51
that this guy was the Handler has to take him take him take him to the funeral so it's a I mean I love the
43:57
movie I like dog movies I think because there's a there's a and I'm a dog guy
44:03
I'm not a cat guy which means both my daughters have multiple cats of course um of course but I'm I'm a dog person
44:11
like I that's just I just love dogs but it's that it's that kind of man dog
44:17
connection that has a no BS kind of un underlayment is something
44:24
that I really like my my family makes fun of me because I will literally cry at itty dog movie like it just it's
44:29
going to happen but it's it's and I you know as I examine that and again I don't want to
44:35
get too woo woo about it but it's like I I can see that that the the the
44:41
unabashed love that a dog has for their human and that connection is something
44:47
that I just I like and I just connect yeah oh AB I love that and
44:53
that's you know I think you're absolutely right there is you know especially I find as we get older you
44:59
know fathers I'll say especially just because I connect like all of a sudden yeah they're like crying at dog movies
45:06
or you know like this this and and it it emerges because again it's stuff we need we need that as much as we need you know
45:13
eating breathing you know all these kinds of things so you're I you're absolutely right and I love the idea
45:18
that the irreverent humor is also creates a connection because you know and you said we can go as deep as on
45:25
that is that's exactly um I go deep on that concept that's a that's a really
45:30
thing powerful thing for me um there are um in the men's World work in the men's
45:37
movement these kind of things there's a lot of talk about archetypes right um and the sort of you know for one a lot
45:45
of people who use archetypes may or may not have studied them uh and so we just put labels on and we use them we attach
45:51
to them and they're they they're it's a very interesting you know concept up the archetypes but you know if I said king
46:00
warrior magician lover I you either have heard of them or you can resonate with them yeah
46:08
yep that as a archetype for men was
46:14
constructed it was created it wasn't it's not a given this is not like we're
46:20
born with 10 fingers then men should become Warriors and Kings right like that is a story that has been created
46:27
and in fact it had was created in the 80s by a guy who wrote a book about
46:33
mensor and it was powerful it was an amazing I I I love it it you know I think for the time it was what we needed
46:41
but even in that book he says there are other archetypes for men but that those are for soft men and we don't need that
46:47
right now right and so as a result we have you know all of these men's work
46:55
and coaches talk about be the warrior be the king be the you know and some of that is really important and I I don't
47:01
denigrate it or put it down at all but what it's doing is it's almost like again if you're only focused on one part
47:09
of of a story or one part of a right if I gave you a cheeseburger and left out the meat you'd be like well this isn't a
47:16
cheeseburger it might be tasty but it's not what I want right um there are other
47:22
archetypes that also describe mature masculinity and what's really powerful my favorite
47:29
of them is the archetype of the trickster so it goes back to reverent humor right the trickster and the you
47:36
know the trickster in many different cultures and all of these things is often seen as a representation of mature
47:43
masculinity because it's in very different uh context than the hero the
47:49
hero black and white might makes right all of these things the
47:54
trickster because in our culture culture we look at everything through the hero's journey lens the trickster can only be at best
48:01
an anti-hero but is usually seen as a villain right like loky or you know all
48:07
these things but the reality is is that the way tricksters are seen outside the
48:13
lens of the hero's journey is they screw [ __ ] up but they take responsibility for
48:19
it they make intentional choices they speak truth to power like Jesters would
48:24
like they can say the truth in a way that power can hear it they also stand up to power they will say this is wrong
48:32
and not worry about getting killed like a prince might or you know like a or a
48:37
hero right um the trickster uses humor to engage and make fun of you know
48:44
powerful structures in culture that are not being questioned right there's all
48:49
sorts of history in different cultures and different times where tricksters were the the the shaman they were the
48:57
the people who were able to sort of question all of the rituals because like hey don't take this [ __ ] too seriously
49:03
come on this is something we're doing to make ourselves feel better but let's be honest you know like the be the ability
49:09
to be a trickster is the ability to be able to make mistakes and be human but
49:15
also take responsibility and and and understand like my favorite example just because I
49:21
happen to like North norom mythology and the MCU is l it's my favorite example
49:27
and in one of the the Norse myths of Loki he caused the end of the world
49:33
right he caused you know Ragnarok he caused the whole you know destruction of their plane but right before that he did
49:41
something to get one of the other gods sent to to the underworld right and everyone was like
49:47
oh my God you framed this God you did this terrible thing you know and you're you know and then he created then he created the end of the world and the
49:53
gods put him in jail and he said yeah okay take me that's cool the end of the world happens but the God who was down
49:59
in the Underworld was able to come back and restore everything yeah and and the things that
50:06
were going on before the end of the world were able to be mitigated and challenged now that is obviously a
50:12
ridiculously oversimplified version of the story but it but it makes the point right like right our irreverent humor I
50:19
mean think about when things were going on in the beginning of the pandemic and everyone's scared and then we had January 6th and then we had you know all
50:25
of the different things who became some of the most popular celebrities The Comedians right Trevor Noah um all of
50:33
the the late night pundits who were comedians like late night shows they were giving news to people which has his
50:40
own thing whatever but they were able to speak to things that you know someone
50:47
else who's in the game just on the other side isn't able to speak to in the same
50:52
way right so the tricksters had a have a voice that we we aren't able to do and
50:58
so actually to answer your last question I also try to use humor I try to you know engage guys in a way you know right
51:05
now I'm doing this thing even on social media where every day I post a dad joke right Dad jokes are a thing and I
51:11
probably have thought more deeply about dad jokes than should be but Dad jokes are a thing I think because they are a
51:18
Remnant they're they're leftover from this trickster archetype and what are they they're play on words words create
51:25
reality they tell stories and so when we mess with words and we get the groans
51:30
you know it's that it's that other side of the reverence right like we can have yeah you know you know we can have
51:36
irreverent humor but we also could have like sort of the best irreverent humor is a little bit smart too right right
51:44
yeah yeah yeah I I think that's interesting because I I um I would probably tend oh there you go I love
51:50
that yeah I think I think I lean towards the trickster ideology a little bit you
51:55
know that archetype is is kind of me I've told people if I'm quiet and not
52:00
like giving you a hard time or really engaging with you and I use humor a lot
52:06
um a lot of times overly because I'll tell my wife after we have people over for dinner
52:12
I'll ask her I'm like that felt like I was a lot was I a lot and she's like yeah you you're a little you were a
52:17
little over the top because I can be a lot I'm just I've got a really outgoing personality even though I'm an introvert
52:23
but I use humor as a way to connect with people so I I I really like that I mean
52:28
even you know and I can see that that that these comedians that are out there that are somewhat pointed somewhat I
52:35
mean like you take someone like Dave Chappelle who can be who a lot of people find
52:41
extremely and offensive um but at the same time he's using humor to say look
52:49
you guys are making all of this stuff so serious and such a thing that I'm going
52:55
to to make fun of it in the in in in a way that's going to make you all super uncomfortable right like his yeah he's
53:01
got some stuff at his latest special that is like oh my gosh I can't believe that he's he just said that but you you
53:08
step back and say look this is it's it's not a big a deal as we all want to make it right like life is not as big life
53:16
doesn't have to be as difficult and as hard and as serious as as the media
53:22
would tell us it needs to be you know the the you know the anxiety ridden fear
53:28
ridden information that we get that kind of thing you know I want to be
53:33
respectful of your time but I'm really interested in one particular aspect of of this and a question that I that
53:39
because I think that you um have such a diverse way of thinking about this because you've you've been comparing and
53:45
contrasting all along the way but one of the things I've talked a lot about about on this podcast and in my coaching and
53:52
in my discussions is this idea that men
53:57
masculine quote unquote traditional masculine men which I I tend to fall into that like I'm a car guy I'm not a
54:04
hunter but I'm a car guy I work out I'm fit you know all of all of these things
54:10
so I fit that upper middle class white guy right like I'm I tend to be the societ be the societal enemy um how do
54:19
we how are we balancing cuz I feel like a little bit what's going on now in our
54:25
culture is that we are you know we've got crazy kind of this gender ideology
54:31
and all this weird stuff that I mean and you know right or wrong whether you
54:36
agree with it or not it is kind of weird what we're dealing what we're dealing with right now in society how are we
54:43
teaching boys and just men in general this this whole idea that men do you
54:51
know we're filled with testosterone we have a most of us are strong most of us
54:57
have natural tendencies towards certain activities we're the we are the PE most
55:03
of the time we're we're mostly the firemen and police and military and all
55:08
of those things so how do you balance this in teaching boys how to be okay
55:15
it's okay if you do lean towards the masculine like it's okay if you don't lean towards the masculine but it's also
55:22
okay if you do because I feel like some of the cultural stuff that we're seeing right now is telling us that it's not
55:28
okay to be masculine AB right like that you we have those words like toxic
55:33
masculinity and all of all of that kind of stuff and so I think you're a great person to ask this question like how do
55:40
we how do we navigate that right now you know it's a it's a great
55:47
question and it's really challenging right you know I'll start just by saying like yeah know I don't like the concept of toxic masculinity right like there
55:54
are toxic behaviors right I literally have a sign on my wall that says masculinity is not
56:01
toxic men some men just suck right yeah which is an yeah I it's an
56:06
oversimplification of it but it's like it's not masculinity that's the problem it's the individual that that's the and
56:13
I would I would add not just the individual I would I would add there's a social pressure there's like back to the manbox correct right the manbox culture
56:21
is toxic it's tox you know I like to say not I like to say I I I don't like it
56:27
but the truth is is patriarchy doesn't like men either and so this is really powerful
56:34
you know we you know the truth is the patriarchy is is is something that you know if I am forced to be within the
56:42
band boox or essentially bullied or punished for not being that way then I'm
56:48
kept in fear then I'm not able to have full expression of my own self then I'm
56:53
not you know and I might become quote powerful where I can dominate others which makes me money
57:00
which makes me this which are all lovely you know I would like to make money right that's nothing wrong with that um
57:07
but but there's something wrong with it when we do it by by oppressing and putting down others and I use oppression
57:13
in a very intentional way not just in the systemic you know racial or or otherwise but even in a smaller you know
57:22
day-to-day how we deal with other people bullying or whatnot so so yeah I think
57:27
it's really important to to think about this question because masculinity in it
57:32
of itself yes it is not toxic at the same time and this is a we can go into this even in another conversation
57:39
because I I I'd like us to stay in touch but anyway um for sure 100% yeah you
57:44
know um but a lot of the things that we think of as typically traditionally
57:50
masculine are not biological they they are not neurological they are socially
57:56
constructed now does that mean that it's wrong to do them no of course not right
58:03
because something's socially constructed does not mean it's inherently wrong right like I I'm not a I'm not uh like I
58:12
I'm not into cars I'm not really that into sports but I was a martial artist I fish I you know I like I said I chop
58:18
wood I you know there are certain things that I do that are definitely within the masculine way of being uh um and so I I
58:26
think for helping kids and Men boys and men is just about saying there's more I
58:33
mean yeah you know like it's a really wonderful thing if we think about it that way right let's not constrict and
58:40
restrict ourselves let's have a have more possibilities right like yeah I love the
58:46
fact that you know when when our last house we live in the in the country here in Vermont but we used to live in the
58:53
the city of B Burlington and we shared a duplex and the other side of the house was U some of our best friends and the
59:00
wife of that family is a I want to say a carpenter but she's more than that she's
59:06
a contractor she has gotten Awards She's she's amazing and I loved the fact that
59:12
when something broke when my kids were very little they went to her but if they were hungry they went to me I'm the cook
59:19
but if they needed um like a um if they needed the like
59:25
support in um in sort of like just being heard and seen they went to my wife
59:31
right like they were different roles and then we played around with them right because I would be like I can fix stuff
59:37
you know and I would learn or you know they you know but this idea that we can be more I think that's the piece that's
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really important I actually on top of working with men and fathers like I'm currently right now running a group of
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sort of late tween early teen boys around this work around puberty around sex
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around gender about all of these things and a lot of it was you know one of the
1:00:05
kids raised his hand in our last session and basically said so you it it's okay
1:00:11
to be kind of anything I was like what do we think about that right like how cool is that right like you know you can
1:00:18
go off and watch football all day and then if you want later on I don't know
1:00:24
whatever bake crumpets I don't whatever it's gonna be right you know um and and
1:00:31
how cool is the idea that as humans not
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as men or as women we have an infinite a way of self-expression right and to your
1:00:44
point around like things are going on around gender and identity you know it's strange like you said it's weird and
1:00:50
strange mostly because it's new to us and it's new to us because it hasn't
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frankly I think because it's been pushed away and seen as different and so wrong
1:01:01
which brings us back to our heroes Journey ideology right like we push it away it's it's existed in cultures for
1:01:07
thousands of years we've known about it it's just not been accepted right one of the kids in our group last week we went
1:01:14
through a lot of different terms and you know just because I want these kids to be aware of what what's around and one
1:01:20
kid raised his hand and said so if we lived in a culture where no one really cared um I I I had them play with terms
1:01:28
for for sex and whatnot one of the ones they liked was was bumping ugly so you know this this 15-year-old this
1:01:35
14-year-old said so if we were in a culture where nobody cared who you liked or who you wanted to B bugle with would
1:01:42
we need all of these terms and I was like that's a great you know great thought like I don't know we
1:01:50
might still need some terms because you'd have to communicate what you wanted to do and with whom right so you'd still need something but
1:01:57
they would not have the same judgment or value or difference like we wouldn't
1:02:02
have to be like oh you know someone one of the kids said well you know no one runs around saying I'm
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heterosexual and I was like well because you don't need to everyone assumes you are unless you say otherwise let's be
1:02:15
aware of these things so for me it's a long way of answering your question but I think it's allowing for difference
1:02:22
encouraging awareness being able to say like expression can be you can be
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masculine and you can do all these other things you can you know allow that but
1:02:35
also to be accepted and to understand that like we don't have to you know force people to be in the
1:02:42
man box in order to be a man right right yeah instead of being an instead of being or you know I'm a I'm a
1:02:50
man or I'm not it's I'm a it's more of an and right like I I'm a man yet I can
1:02:57
serve my wife in a way that supports her emotionally I can serve her in a way that's more traditional I can you know I
1:03:04
can do these things that are are not necessarily they're definitely not in the man box um like I I will I will sew
1:03:14
my own clothes if I end up I don't make my own clothes but like if I need to quote unquote darn a sock or all that
1:03:20
stuff like that's I'll I do that that's you know that's my thing but exactly so
1:03:25
yeah I yeah I I definitely appreciate that and I think you know I think we could have a whole you know much we
1:03:31
could do Joe Rogan level uh podcast link on on this one but I think this is I
1:03:37
think that's a great place to kind of land the plane as mikro says um and I I
1:03:43
really appreciate your Insight and what you're doing and I'm excited to continue to connect and I'm excited what you're
1:03:50
doing to help help men be like we say in max out man you know be who they were made to be be who they were meant to be
1:03:57
so absolutely I love that yeah I mean I I I I appreciate the ability or the
1:04:02
willingness to really go here and I think this conversation I'd love to continue and you know I'm I'm looking to
1:04:08
to get to know you more it'll be fun yeah so how do we find out more information about what you got going
1:04:14
on uh so the the best way I think would probably be you know my website is Journeymen foundation.com
1:04:23
um I would say at this point you know the I I sometimes slip and say we but really
1:04:29
journeyman is me so my my email is you know Jason nourished connections.com and if
1:04:36
anyone emails me you'll get a response from me yeah um and then the one thing that I can offer also like I I put it
1:04:42
together a while ago but I was just reading it and it still holds is I I it's a it's a PDF that I've shared of
1:04:50
the 10 ways that dads can most affect affect effectively and efficiently
1:04:55
connect with their kids um and I do all of them myself I've shared them with
1:05:00
clients for years and I once I time myself I used the stopwatch if you do all 10 of them it's less than 15 minutes
1:05:07
every day nice you know a great resource I'll share that link and and you know I
1:05:14
think that it's been really powerful you know I'll give you a quick example is
1:05:20
every single night of my kids lives and remember I have two boys um every single
1:05:25
night without fail so even if let's say I go away for a few nights I'll either call or if I'm camping leave a an
1:05:32
individual note for every night I'm gone um or if they go away same thing I'll either put you know they go camping I'll
1:05:38
put it in their in their sleeping bags but every single night I say to them the
1:05:44
same 12 words and I have not missed since they were kids I'm sure my 15-year-old at some point will it'll
1:05:50
there'll be a change but still now I say I love you for always and forever you're my sweet one oh nice love I say that and
1:05:58
I give them a kiss they say it back to me and they give me a kiss and this the
1:06:04
the the say the statement's not important but the repetition the foundation the we you know we you know
1:06:10
my 15-year-old can go at it and totally be angry with each other and I have to be the adult when they go to bed and be
1:06:16
like I'm gonna say it I'm I'm G so I go in and I say it he looks at me and I
1:06:21
said you don't have to and sometimes he and as I walk out of the room I hear him
1:06:27
mumbling it I love you for you know and it's so important it's like takes 12
1:06:33
seconds yeah and and over the course of time what it does is say even if we're
1:06:40
arguing you know are no matter how big of an argument it is I'm committed to
1:06:46
knowing and loving you for life love that and that's that's
1:06:51
powerful 12 seconds I love it I love it for sure well thank you so much I
1:06:58
appreciate you and uh we'll stay in touch for sure absolutely I'm looking forward to it and uh yeah let's let's
1:07:05
keep in touch thank you if you're looking to really maximize
1:07:10
your life and become the man you were made to be head over to maxed out man.com and get your journey started
1:07:21
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