Maxed out Man
Welcome to the Maxed Out Man Podcast, where success meets personal growth. Dive into conversations with entrepreneur Kevin Davis and a roster of experts, as we unravel the essence of being a man today. Whether you're navigating isolation or seeking to elevate your life, this podcast promises insights and strategies to help you become the man you were made to be. Perfect for those ready to challenge themselves and transform.
Maxed out Man
Episode 55 - Shaping the Self: Masculinity in the Age of Awareness - Keith Edwards
In this conversation, Keith Edwards discusses his research on masculinity and the process of unmasking and becoming. He emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and self-management in redefining masculinity and encourages individuals to navigate the blank slate and create their own authentic version of masculinity. Keith also highlights the role of accountability and feedback in personal growth and the influence of media in shaping our perceptions. Overall, the conversation explores the complexities of masculinity and the need for individuals to consciously define and embrace their own authentic masculinity.
In this conversation, Keith Edwards discusses toxic masculinity, self-discovery, engaging men, creating social change, navigating change in relationships, accountability and growth, embracing impermanence, and empty nesting. He emphasizes the importance of giving oneself permission to stop conforming to societal expectations and instead focus on being true to oneself. By embracing authenticity and being open to growth and change, individuals can experience transformative relationships and personal growth.
Takeaways
- Masculinity is a complex and evolving concept that requires individuals to navigate their own path and define their own authentic version.
- Self-awareness and self-management are crucial in the process of unmasking and becoming, allowing individuals to consciously choose their actions and behaviors.
- Accountability and feedback play a significant role in personal growth and the development of authentic masculinity.
- Being mindful of the media we consume and actively choosing what aligns with our values and aspirations is essential in shaping our perceptions and understanding of masculinity. Toxic masculinity is not about men being toxic, but about the harmful expectations placed on men.
- Self-discovery involves understanding the experiences and events that have shaped one's identity, while self-creation involves making choices aligned with one's values and purpose.
- Engaging men in conversations about masculinity is crucial for creating social change and challenging harmful norms.
- Navigating change in relationships requires open communication, acknowledging growth, and embracing impermanence.
- Accountability should focus on actions and behaviors rather than blaming or shaming individuals.
- Embracing impermanence allows for personal growth and the ability to adapt to changing circumstances.
- Empty nesting can be a time of growth and new opportunities for couples.
- Giving oneself permission to be authentic and true to oneself is essential for personal growth and fulfillment.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage
03:11 Keith Edwards' Background and Research on Masculinity
08:06 Identity Crisis and Redefining Masculinity
13:08 The Process of Unmasking and Becoming
20:00 Navigating the Blank Slate and Redefining Masculinity
25:30 The Importance of Self-Awareness and Self-Management
28:00 The Role of Accountability and Feedback in Personal Growth
32:14 The Influence of Media and Being Mindful of What We Consume
38:37 Understanding Toxic Masculinity
42:19 Self-Discovery and Self-Creation
46:44 Engaging Men and Creating Social Change
50:43 Navigating Change in Relationships
55:20 Accountability and Growth
01:01:30 Embracing Impermanence
01:09:12 Empty Nesting and Relationship Growth
01:11:56 Permission to Be Authentic
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0:00
Welcome to maxed out man helping you
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become the man you were made to be hey guys it's Kevin Davis from the
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max out man podcast I am here with Keith Edwards this is episode number 55 Keith
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helps leaders and organizations uh to make transformational change for Leadership
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Learning and Equity Keith is the author of the book unmasking toward the authentic masculinity which is based on
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more than 15 years of award-winning research want to talk about some of that research uh Keith illuminates men's
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masking unmasking and becoming uh to help men develop their own authentic
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masculinity that's a cool phrase authentic masculinity uh he also shares strategy to help us all better engage
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the men in our lives with empathy reach them with compassion effectively hold them accountable and help them to become
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the men they aspire to be which is right at my alley because our our little tagline is you know helped men be who
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they were made to be on maxed out man so hey you know that is I want you to go
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more depth on who you are and what you do and and all that but I love the
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balance that you've got in in that statement because I think one of the things I picked up on most is that we
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you know treat men with empathy and reach them with compassion because I
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don't I don't think that aspect of of the that coin is is uh is really pushed
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that much so uh but yeah that's your that's the bio you've got a lot going on us on your website you do a ton of
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things so tell us more about you and who you are and what you got going on uh yeah so I'm a a speaker author and
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Coach work for myself um sort of more broadly and then we'll talk specifically about the masculinity stuff that I think
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your audience is focused on so I I do a lot of work in higher ad around learning um I do a lot of work on uh equity and
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inclusion I am a certified coach so I have over a thousand hours Co coaching College presidents and CEOs and
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independent Scholars and activists and I worked for myself for the past almost N9 years uh which is a
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remarkable thing to even say out loud um and I'm a father of two
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daughters so I think that's a relevant part of this conversation one of the things I have two myself too so yeah
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yeah and so uh this book came out of uh 15 years of research starting with my
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dissertation um and I interviewed 10 college men and then I've interviewed them every five
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years since okay and so we've done the conversation when they're about 20 when they're about 25 30 35 and next summer
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we'll do it when they're about 40 and so I've had the conversation with the same 10 men who are very different in terms
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of identities and their experiences and then trying to find even though they're so different what's the single story
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that they all share as men and it's been really interesting to sort of follow them along so the research initially
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started being about college men but it's become about men and Parenthood and jobs
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and career and I think a lot of the things that that I see you talking about um and thinking about and that your
Keith Edwards' Background and Research on Masculinity
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audience is really interested in and you mentioned sort of the balance and I think it's interesting because um that
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balance is really important to me and I think it depends on kind of the circles you you're you're in because I think some folks when they talk about men just
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talk about the harm that men do MH and they do right uh violence gun violence sexual
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violence uh talking over women not listening all of these things right and that's a part of
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it and men are also harmed right uh higher rates of mental health issues
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less likely to seek help for it uh that violence that men perpetrate most often it's men who are the victims of that
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violence um and so men have harder times in relationships and despite all the Privileges and advantages we get in the
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world which we do we still die younger have higher rates of heart disease you know all of these things and um I see
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that all rooted in sort of how we're socialized as men um in a patriarchal culture which we know certainly
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oppresses others but also harms men ourselves um and that that's very clear
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in in the participants lives it's hard to see um but once you see it you see it
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all over the place all over so I think to say we want to hold men accountable for when they mess up is important and
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reach them with compassion and understanding and most of the conversations I am a part of around men
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it's either or it's either oh look what how men are suffering we really need to be there for them and we do or look at
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all those horrible things men are doing we really need to make sure they stop doing that and we do but if we don't see
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the roots underneath both of those things um then I think we're just kind of scratching at the symptoms rather
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than getting it um curing the disease yeah do you feel like that
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that's giving and I want to talk more I I you know I'm a big Andrew huberman fan so I love all the data and the you know
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like so I I kind of nerd out on that and we can talk about anything on this podcast that you want to we have a lot a
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lot of stuff but do you feel like that that kind of um dichotomy is creating
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this I I feel like men have a bit of an identity crisis in in general right now
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whether good or bad we kind of back in the day so to speak you know when I was
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coming up it's like this is kind of how you define manhood and masculinity and and I I do like how that definition is
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Shifting and changing but I feel like we're almost in this identity crisis especially for young men now it's like
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what is it okay to even be a man is it okay to be masculine is okay you know this patriarchy and and all of those
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words you know talk a little bit about that because I have a 24 year old and a 20 almost 26 year old uh daughter and
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the youngest one was here over Christmas and we kind of got into this discussion and and her view of men and masculinity
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is so different from mine and both of us are on a little bit different part of
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the Continuum and we're trying to come together but yeah um but that age range is is is very different yeah well and my
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daughters are 11 and 13 so their perspective on gender is probably even different than than your daughters oh
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yeah and um so I I I I mean one of the great things about Parenthood is you get to rewatch Star Wars for the first time
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again and you get to learn about gender for the first time again through sort of their eyes um so I'll make long story
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short and I I don't I think the most boring word I'll use in this whole conversation is dissertation we'll skip over that but um
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but what I learned in the research was that the men all had the same
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secret and their secret was I know what the world expects of me to be a man they
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were very clear about that and I said well when did you first learn it and they would say I've always known
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that they're very clear and then they're they would sort of share you know U drink beer drive a
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truck eat meat be successful don't study you know all of these things be good at
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sports very clear and then eventually usually in the second interview they
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would sort of look around to make sure no one was there even though it was just the two of us and they would whisper to
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me but that's not me and I would be like yeah yeah and
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they'd look around and they'd be like I fake it I pretend I wear this mask and I
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was like okay tell me about that and they the their assumption was these
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expectations that Society had just came naturally to everybody else you it's
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easy you know you're successful and you you've have done all these things but for me
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I gotta work at it I have self-doubt I'm not quite so sure um I'm too big I'm too
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thin I'm too smart I'm not smart enough whatever the case may be and so I'll pretend and I will lie about hookups
Identity Crisis and Redefining Masculinity
8:13
I've never had I will lie about drinking amounts that I don't really drink I will
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lie about not buying the book and not going to class when I study when no one's looking and so this performance or their
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metaphor is putting on my man face putting on this mask and um initially it was really
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about sharing with them that you all had the same secret because they all thought it was just me I'm the only one who
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doesn't feel good enough and I'm the only one who's developed the strategy and when I shared all 10 of you shared the same thing essentially they were
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they were shocked because as I mentioned the men are very different so scholarship football player looks across
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at a transgender gay man and we're like we told you the same in secret um
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fraternity president looks across at sexual violence prevention educator and we're like we shared the same we have
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the same experience and then they wouldn't stop talking well how does it and I do this
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and I swear and I do this and oh yeah me too and I lower my voice oh I do too and having sharing those strategies so that
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masking to live up to society's expectations and as you pointed out those expectations shift um the
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expectations of me were different for them different for your daughter different than what my daughters
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friends who are boys are learning but there's still external expectations and I think there's um
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particularly in this age of outrage culture and social media and polarization around not just politics
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but everything we start to get a lot of the most extreme versions because that's what gets Amplified by people liking or
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people being mad about it so you see more of it and I think we're getting sort of that version certainly politically but also in terms of
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masculinity you have to be this no you have to be this this is wrong this is is right and um I think that's complicated
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and it's hard and it's confusing um but what happened eventually was this
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process of sort of understanding their masking and that mask Consciousness knowing I'm wearing a mask you just pay
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more attention to how you do it and then you can do it with choice and Consciousness like oh I'm in a job
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interview I'm not going to share about how difficult my divorce is here even though that's authentic it's not the
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right time and place MH I'm at coffee with my best friends and I don't really want to get into it well maybe this is
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the right time and place I got to push into that I'm putting out my ass saying everything's fine it's not actually um
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and then this process of unmasking which was kind of a temporary kind of thing where you could with a coach maybe I'll
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take the mask off and say I'm scared about this or I'm really excited about this thing or or relationship or a
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parent or conversation with your daughter maybe MH but then would snap
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back into place in other things and then there's a a future process which is I think maybe where many of your audience
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members are which which I'll describe as becoming and becoming toward authentic
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masculinity we can talk about becoming which is this process really rooted in some coaching
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things and then this process of authentic masculinity which is sort of a a differentiation between traditional
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masculinity healthy masculinity which I like but I don't think goes far enough to then authentic masculin I think when
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we're reaching for authentic masculinity then should I be this or this and I'm getting messages about this or this just
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becomes external noise and you start saying well that's fine but I look good
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in pink so I'm gonna go with that um I
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don't drink beer I love meat and so you get to sort of rather
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than is this manly or is this not or is this version of masculine it's all external um and I think I think that's
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what I you know the traditional masculinity as you said some of it works for you and works for me but some of
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it's pretty pretty gross um and then there's a lot of people promoting healthy masculinity which I think is great it's
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about respect and being honorable and using your strength to serve others and and I I like that but it's still
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externally imposed it's still someone else's mask it maybe a better mask but it's still a mask so for me that's not
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what I'm working on each I'm working on like what's what's authentic masculinity
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for me because being a man is a really important part of who I am but I don't want anyone else I don't
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want Society or advertising on football games or you to Define that for me I
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want to like what is me what's real and and and my answer to that is going to be different than your answer to that would
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be different than Barack Obama's answer to that right like and and so how do we create that authentic masculinity and
13:01
when you figure that out then you get to live it fully and really embrace it rather than pretend or put on this mask
The Process of Unmasking and Becoming
13:08
so I said long story short and then I didn't do that no I I love it I there's a there's a lot in there that we can
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unpack and I think I think it's super um interesting that all of those men had
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this kind of externally imposed self-imposed externally defined
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self-imposed identity of what it means to be a man and most of it is completely
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ridiculous right where it's it's almost like a caricature of masculinity and we
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had we had this discussion with my daughter too because she was like and I I know you did a show you actually did
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uh and I saw an article or podcast on your website about the Barbie movie right where you guys where you guys did
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the so she wanted us my wife and I to watch the Barbie movie and it's just it's just not we watched it but it's
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just not our type of movie movie you know it just it just wasn't for us but that led to some of the more patriarchal
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kind of stereotypical bad behaviors and so we we had we got along this
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discussion and a lot of what we she was giving me all the negative aspects of
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masculinity and my and actually my wife actually said none of those mean those
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that's not being a man that's none of those things is is masculine you know
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none of none of that behavior is actually what you define masculinity as and so we got it was great discussion
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and really open up open up some some different aspects of that discussion but I live in
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Montana I'm a you know back in the day they would have called me a metrosexual right you're familiar with
14:47
that familiar with that that old that old term it's probably haven't heard that in a while yeah it's probably offensive to some people butc you know I
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mean I I do my hair and take care of my nails and wear decent clothes and all those things so that was kind of this
15:02
this definition I'm not a hunter um you know they have actually this term hunting W hunting widows you know in
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October September October because everybody's all the guys are G I grew up in Wisconsin we I know exactly what
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you're talking about yeah I mean I am a car guy but I don't have any car guy friends so like you know I don't drink
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I've been married to my wife for 28 years love her to death it gets better all the time like so I'm kind of the
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anti- you know man in in a lot of aspects of
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myself but super tied in other aspects yeah right to the the external
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expectation right there's a lot of ways you really do fit sort of the external expectations in a lot of ways you don't
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yeah and that's my experience too right so many ways that but that's what I like is that I get to choose I don't get to
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say oh this is what I have to be and you know the flip side of what you have to be is what you can't be
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right you can't pay attention to your hair and your nails right that's you you
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can't cry at Movies you can't share emotional vulnerability you can't share your fear and self-doubt you do need to
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hunt you do need to drink beer you do need to drive a truck you do need to know how to fix cars um right so there's
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a lot of what we should think feel and do and not think feel and do and as
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you're pointing out and we share this experience but in different ways is that there are ways that that works for you
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that you know if you could pick and choose some that's me yeah that's authentic that's really who I am and then oh oh no that's not me that's not
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me um and I think that's that's somewhat how I think about it and I I I'm
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challenging myself not to look at an external definition and say yes to that
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part and no to that part but to say what if I just started from scratch right and
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what would that look like and that blank slate I think is a little scary right um
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but also super liberating because I get to um not say yes or no to what other people are
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offering me but maybe I create something new that doesn't even exist that's not even a part of that and think about that
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as manly or masculine for me important to me as a man and how does that process
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work like what how does that can you walk through that like a blank slate type process I mean I'm so I'm 51 just
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turned 51 in December and i' I've kind of I was an old soul have a weird family
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situation where I kind of raised myself from seven or eight became an adult quote unquote very early and so I feel
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really comfortable in my own skin like I and and I'm really good at what you
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described which is I have I I have the innate ability to put on a mask um not
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in a bad way not even in a negative way but but this if if I'm talking to a CEO of aund million doll company I have a
17:57
different I have a different conversation than the mechanic down the road that we happen to be having lunch
18:03
with or whatever right and so I'm really so I'm trying to understand like how do you redefine that like for as someone
18:10
that is pretty comfortable with who I am and I'm continuing to learn this podcast has been great for that honestly because
18:17
I get to have conversations like like this with people that I would ordinarily never have right like this is not this
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is not normal life for you to be able to talk to people all over the world and and that but how does that process work
18:29
in terms of like blank slate and redefining and all that well let me talk about it in terms of Super Micro and
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then we can talk about some bigger ideas so on a super micro level how I do it dayto day is I just
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notice I just noticed like oh when I chose this sweater and this shirt I
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thought what's his podcast about what are people going to like is this you know I I had that it was about 3 seconds
18:57
but I had that conversation and I just notice and go oh that's interesting that you are paying attention to how this
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will be perceived and not and then I just go is that how I want to think about that sometimes it is but one of
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the things um that doing this research for almost 20 years now has taught me is
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that I'm not free from those expectations because I've done this research I just notice it a lot more I
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notice how I do it I notice how I don't do it I just notice it and I probably notice maybe 30 times a day that I'm
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thinking about how will this be perceived is this man enough when you know all these little things from what I
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wear to what I say or how I say it and how I interact and even the conversations I have with myself so for
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me that's Mass Consciousness right and that's what you describing and when you have mass Consciousness you can choose a
19:52
mask with intention or what I would call conscious choice right and you gave
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great examp examples of that when you don't have mask Consciousness you're just wearing a mask all the time and
Navigating the Blank Slate and Redefining Masculinity
20:04
you're no there's no agency there right but once you're aware oh I do wear masks and I shift them in different context
20:11
you can then notice like well why did I make this assumption about my mechanic and put on this mask maybe that wasn't
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fair to him maybe he is more open okay let's try and you can sort of do that and so for me I think Mass Consciousness
20:24
just awareness just noticing and you know I know you've talked a lot about mindfulness uh without judgment oh hey
20:32
I'm wondering if this is blue enough right okay interesting well
20:38
that's a thing that you do Keith okay that doesn't really M that doesn't align with my values so I'm not going to tend
20:43
to that I'm not going to dance with that um but then there might be other things like
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um I just interacted with my daughter's friends in this way and hm no that is
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that is how I want to interact that is in align with my values that is in Aline with who I want to be um so just
21:04
noticing on a macro level the process I talk about is from the research is it's
21:09
called becoming and uh this is really informed from the research but also informed from
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coaching and some other psychology and other theories and I'll Define the process as becoming sort of like a math
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equation becoming equals a function of identity and
21:27
integrity and I would have thought we would figure out identity first and then
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move to Integrity so who am I which is some of what we've been talking about who am I as a man okay I got that
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figured out now now I need to do that consistently and what the research
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taught me is it's not unidirectional it's a conversation so I think about this sort of the infinity symbol on its
21:50
side sort of figure eight on its side identity and integrity in conversations because the participants would say um I
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I see myself S as a very honest person and I lied three times this week
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so do I need to do better at integrity and stop lying or maybe I need to think
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of myself maybe I'm not as honest as I think I am do I need to change my identity and those were talking to each
22:16
other constantly right um I've gotten a lot of feedback I'm not a very good listener and so I just think I'm just
22:22
not a very good listener but lately people have saying wow I really feel seen and heard by you maybe I need to
22:28
change my self-identity as maybe I am a good listener now right and so those being in conversation and accountability
22:35
was really key to that um both self-accountability the noticing
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that I just described or or other people like a conversation with your daughter might be like oh I guess I do this or
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that or think about in this way or use I'll think about that or friends or co-workers or things like that but that
22:54
that conversation and identity the process there is really self-awareness which I break down into
23:01
two parts and then with Integrity it's self-management so who am I and then who
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how am I doing and then I think early on in that process maybe folks who are in their 20s
23:15
or 30s that's a real like robust active conscious like we're
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really working at it right who am I like really who am I I don't live at home now
23:28
I have this job now I have my own family oh my goodness who let me bring kids home from the hospital I have no idea
23:34
what the hell I'm doing oh no I had no clue um and then there's uh well I've
23:40
always thought I'm this person but I'm not I guess I'm not really doing that and um you know falling short
23:47
and and then I think the more you do it it becomes more integrated and um we're still doing it
23:54
because as you said you're you're still trying to figure out who you are right you're more certain about it but it's
24:00
you're not finished right maybe a little fine-tuning maybe 15 years ago you were like more unclear and more trying to
24:07
figure that out and as as I think we we age unless there's sort of a big crisis
24:12
which can be positive or negative something really shocking to the system our integrity gets refined and we become
24:18
more comfortable and we become comfortable being you know I'm just not a good listener and I've accepted that about me and I apologize a lot and I've
24:25
worked at it and or whatever the case may be and it becomes a little bit um
24:31
we're still doing the same identity and integrity but it's just a little bit less effortful right where we just and you
24:38
know as a coach you know this these are the people who just show up as who they are
24:44
um they they they brag about their successes and they don't hide their weaknesses and they're just like this is
24:50
who I am you know and that's fine and if you don't like it that's okay but some people don't that's fine um and I think
24:57
you know some coach in things like really being able to handle your inner critic really help with that knowing
25:03
your values knowing your purpose in life can really help clarify that but that's all
25:08
about the self-awareness um and and I break self-awareness into self-discovery and
25:15
self-creation we could talk more about that but yeah I'm I'm curious on because my wife has said this to me and my
25:21
children um because I'm growing I'm continually growing and and honestly over the last couple years I feel like
25:27
I've grown a lot um yeah but it's like I used to be that guy be like you know
The Importance of Self-Awareness and Self-Management
25:34
this is just me this is my thought process this is how I think and I'm not going to change that and this is just
25:39
who I am well my wife was like yeah but you're being an
25:44
it's it's not it's not okay just to keep
25:49
being that yeah right like you this because you're you're not the you're not
25:54
the man that I know you uh can be and what with our relationship what's interesting is that she's often said and
26:01
I totally agree with her is that I get the best she gets the best parts of
26:08
me um I will be more kind more empathetic more caring more giving all
26:13
of those best traits that I have she gets um and then and then less so to
26:20
other to other people I think that's great I hear a lot of people where it's the opposite right I get up I go to I
26:26
work out I go to work I give my best self and then I come home at 6:00 and I'm toast and my partner my kids get the
26:34
exasperated impatient frustrated version of me um so good for you that's great um
26:41
but I also think that's what um that's what intimacy is right where um I
26:47
remember a participant saying you know like I I live with my girlfriend my sister and my mom like I can't pretend
26:53
with them ridiculous right um or someone else said you know my wife's the
26:59
strongest person I've ever known so I'm not going to try and like outman her and
27:05
be stronger than her like I'll lose um or you know you know at home is
27:12
where I can take my mask off and share my fears or share what I'm really
27:18
excited about sometimes our our enthusiasm can be feel really vulnerable yeah um but but as you pointed out too
27:24
that's accountability and so in the Clos the relationship I think the more seriously we take that accountability
27:31
someone else calls you an you just go well you're an and you move on with your life right someone who
27:36
you love and care about and you're invested and says this isn't working you go oh well I'll pay attention to that
27:41
help me understand and I think that process of growth um I remember being 24
27:49
getting a master's degree and college student development and my grandfather driving me to the airport and he's like
27:55
what is it that you're getting a master's degree in I said well I'm helping college students learn how to figure out who they are and I was like
The Role of Accountability and Feedback in Personal Growth
28:04
right that's good that's that's impressive like Grandpa you're going to be impressed and he was 74 at the time
28:10
and he was was driving me to the airport and he said that's interesting I think I'm still trying to
28:16
figure out who I am and I just had this moment of like oh
28:23
I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life
28:28
because I kind of had this like you finished that in college and I I like that because I just finished college so I wanted to be done right I wanted to be
28:34
finished and self-actualized a mentor of mine uh who's incredibly accomplished he has
28:40
this super impressive bio and if you were to have him on you'd read it and it'd be these amazing things and the
28:45
last line is and he is wildly unfinished love that as like something
28:51
he's proud of yeah this is how I'm wildly unfinished and I'm working on that project and I'm interested and it's
28:58
exciting and I can't wait to figure out who I am um but I think that that
29:03
learning and growing and realizing we're going to be different both in terms of who we see ourselves as and how we show
29:09
up in the world um I remember being in that car being like oh no that sounds
29:15
like a lot of work that sounds scary that sounds unnerving and then also now I find it
29:21
like super exciting like I'm a really different person than I was four years ago and that means I'll be a different
29:29
person just as much in four years yeah it's it's really strange it's
29:35
really strange how how even those small incremental changes happen you know clearly you're a way different person
29:42
from that 24 year old college kid right so yeah and the world shapes us and our
29:47
conversations shape us and where we live shape us and um who we're surrounded
29:52
with shapes us the podcasts we listen to shape us right you know you know I I know lots of people all they listen to
29:59
is true crime and it shapes them and I listen to nerdy like this and it
30:04
shapes me in a different way and I'm not I'm not judging that as good or bad but like you know if all you listen to our
30:11
Sports podcasts and you know then that shapes you um and so I I love this
30:18
notion about how we all know we should pay really good attention to what we consume in terms of food and nutrition
30:24
but what do we pay attention to our attention what are we paying attention to and what is drawing our Focus because
30:31
that really does shape us and again being conscious about that and I love cheesy TV shows but I do that as a
30:40
choice not I give up and I don't want to think about it so this is just what I'm going to fill my life with like no this
30:46
is fun time this is entertainment this is when I learn and I I wow learning isn't miserable I love it it's so fun
30:52
for me um but yeah what shapes us yeah that's a I and I mean that's the
30:58
argument right that people are I hope are becoming more and more aware of um I
31:04
saw a statistic something like people under the age of 25 get 52% of their fact quote unquote I'm going to put this
31:11
in quote factual information from Tik Tock um and you know the argument now
31:17
there's a lot of talk about what's going on in Gaza and Palestine and Israel and Hamas and all of that stuff and and and
31:24
they were actually showing some fairly decent data that the that the information being readily available is
31:32
actually Pro one side or Pro the other side yeah and you know we have this intrinsic bias right and so the
31:39
algorithm then feeds that bias it's it's really freaking scary it promotes the most outrageous
31:46
take on anything right whether the bear is a good show or not the most outrageous take gets promulgated
31:53
because people who agree like it and people who disagree hate it and and then
31:58
share it is isn't this trash isn't this garbage and you know and then that happens with with Gaza that happens with
32:05
politics that happens with masculinity that happens with whether mindfulness is a good thing or not right so many
32:12
different things and I think being good consumers of that information is even going to get harder as AI people are
The Influence of Media and Being Mindful of What We Consume
32:20
turning to Ai and I find it fascinating I find it really helpful but I don't
32:26
trust it I ask it questions and they go that's interesting that's your answer I don't I don't necessarily believe that this is
32:32
accurate um because there's so much of it that isn't true and so how do we navigate through that and I find myself
32:39
now seeing you know pictures of two people together on the Emmy's red carpet and I go I don't know if that was real
32:45
do they know were they even there or because I can go on an AI and say put Kevin and Keith together on the emy's
32:50
red carpet we can get an image like that so how do we do that and I think just being you know I think mindfulness is
32:57
incredibly important like oh I'm drawn to Tik Tok and I'm drawn to I'm drawn to
33:03
things that validate my opinions I'm also drawn to things that completely
33:08
reject my opinions because I want that how can you say that and then I want someone to call them out and be outraged
33:14
and they're never outraged enough and so I keep paying attention to that which is both my attention but that also feeds
33:20
the algorithm and promotes this thing that I completely disagree with um so yeah how do we pay attention to we're
33:27
paying attention to I think is a really important life skill and being and being
33:32
kind of self-aware that that it really it like not conspiratorial but honestly it's like I become more distrusting of
33:41
the information that's been given to me over time I actually prove this point to my wife because we were I was on Tik Tok
33:47
or Instagram or one of those things and and she's we you know flipping through my feet and all of a sudden there's some
33:54
you know young young woman that's not dressed as you know with as many
33:59
clothing as she should should have and she's like why are you following that person I'm like I'm not this was just
34:05
just fed to me and so we went through the exercise I actually created a brand new profile a brand new account yeah
34:12
said I was a man of this age lived in this and had these interests and literally with before I did anything it
34:19
was filled with those kind of images yeah yeah and so you have to be really cautious about you know that kind of
34:26
stuff yeah yeah absolutely and pay attention to it and be a Savvy consumer
34:32
but then also not just what do you want to avoid but what do you want to engage in you know what feeds sort of the man
34:39
that you want to be what is affirming of that um my Instagram for a long time I
34:44
didn't follow anyone not my mom not my sister it was just mindfulness and
34:49
travel blogs and art museums it was this Blissful little space paintings and Bali
34:56
and John kit Zin and um but um that that shifted as I've started opening up and
35:03
particularly with the book coming out and marketing and things like that and sharing that but it it's it's remarkable how it's shifted and what comes in there
35:11
but what do we want to pay attention to what podcast do we want to listen to what books do we want to read what conversations do we want to have what
35:18
people do we want to have over for dinner on Sunday and if we're going to have these people over what's the
35:24
conversations we want to have or don't want to have um I'm I'm hearing for a
35:29
lot of people they sort of fall into talking about politics talking about polarization talking about these things
35:36
um and even when they're having conversations with people they completely agree with it's not
35:41
fulfilling and then they're not talking about their great conversation with their 26y old daughter about changing
35:47
Notions of masculinity in the Barbie movie which sounds super interesting right even if you didn't like the movie
35:53
um or I I actually did while she was here did an episode so we well and we
35:59
didn't talk a lot about masculinity we but we you know so if you're listening to this podcast hopefully you've listen
36:04
listened to that one ahead of time if you haven't go back and listen to it but yeah that yeah I think I think that's really great to talk about you know
36:10
cross Generations cross different experiences um and learn from each other
36:16
there's a there's a lot we can gain from wisdom and experience and I also really
36:22
bre value fresh new Innovative creative perspectives as well yeah how is all of
36:29
that shaping you know what's going on with our our understanding of masculinity now
36:36
especially you know and like you said you've gone through kind of this multigenerational study you know I've
36:42
got a I've got a poster behind me that says you know masculinity is not toxic it some men just some men just suck and
36:48
that's a that's a that's a very divisive way to say that that the negative
36:54
aspects of masculinity are typically um more individualized than than
37:00
masculinity you know what masculinity should be yeah but how you know what how are we how do we know what masculinity
37:08
really quote unquote is and I mean especially in context of authentic masculinity like you're talking about
37:15
well I think about you know the the way I think about toxic masculinity is no one who talks about toxic masculinity
37:20
thinks men are toxic they think the message is that you need to drink beer and be man and have lots of sex and get
37:28
drunk and always be successful and nutty never study and have great pecs and flat
37:34
abs you know that that expectation is toxic and it's toxic for for men and
37:39
it's toxic for for everybody right um it it's the roots of sexism it's the roots
37:44
of men not being good listeners it's the roots of you know as you saw that Instagram feed that sir you created what
37:51
funnels that but if we if we stop thinking about men as toxic but thinking about these expectations that we're
37:57
putting on men I think what men usually go is like oh well I don't want to do
38:02
what Budweiser wants me to do I don't want to do what my Instagram feed or Tik Tok like I want to decide and so then
38:10
then it's about my agency and um and I I think what I see right now is
38:19
sort of the national conversation that I see is people are really paying attention to how men are
38:25
hurting um and I think for a long time we've talked about how men are hurting others right through 99% of mass
38:33
shootings are done by men as one example um sexism is another example sexual
Understanding Toxic Masculinity
38:39
violence is another example men in boardrooms not listening to women are talking over and interrupting is another example s we we talked about that and
38:46
now we're paying attention to how men are hurting how men are being hurt too and I think that that that both and is
38:53
so critically important dying younger um being harmed by violence mental
38:59
health issues uh heart disease stress I think the both and of that is really
39:06
really important and so how do we help men figure out what's true for them help
39:13
them discover that and have that not be the same answer for you and I and I think the larger conversation right now
39:19
is sort of saying well men are doing these things and that's a problem and these things are happening to men and that's a problem and the left doesn't
39:27
have good answers because of this and the right doesn't have good answers because of this and oh no what are we going to do and I think because that's
39:34
because most of those people live in New York or Washington DC yeah and they're surrounded by the solution to our
39:39
problems is left or right D or R and I'd say don't look to the left don't look to
39:47
the right look within so if you're listening to this conversation and thinking well who's going to tell me the
39:54
man I should be I would say stop looking elsewhere look within like what's the
40:00
man you really want to be and that to me is about that self-awareness and I break
40:06
self-awareness into self-discovery and self-creation so self-discovery is think
40:12
about your life on a timeline of let's say you're going to live to 100 maybe more maybe less and then where are you
40:19
on that timeline I'm at 47 so self-discovery is 0 to 47
40:26
everything that has happened in my life until now right parents got divorced when I was nine played high school
40:32
basketball poorly got bullied went to college had some transformative
40:38
experiences so everything that has happened life experiences move that has
40:43
shaped me and made me who I currently am and the more aware I am about all those
40:50
experiences and all those conversations and falling in love and falling out of love and breaking your arm when you were 10 and all of that stuff has shaped me
40:56
and when you're really clear about that then you have a really good foundation but that's half the story the other half
41:03
is self-creation which is who do I want to be what are the choices I want to make
41:08
uh are we going to have a third kid are we going to move to a bigger house what am i g to have for
41:14
dinner right like all of these things as you said the little things add up there's big decisions but the little
41:20
things add up and if we know if we don't figure out what got us here then we kind
41:26
of build a house on not a great Foundation if we understand the
41:31
foundation but don't have Agency for creating the life we want to have then we're just victims to our
41:37
circumstances and so we need that Foundation of understanding about what got us here and then also what is the
41:43
things you're going to make your choices and so when I'm coaching men we do a lot of discovery about what's shaped you
41:49
right and and it's amazing how you can remember things that you haven't thought of in 20 years right like oh my gosh
41:56
that relationship that moment uh I often think about that I went to Hamlin
42:02
University which is here in St Paul Minnesota for college um it completely has shaped my entire life since and the
42:09
reasons I went there is they sent me email early I like the colors and they had pizza pizza pizza head pizza and
42:16
there's no part of that decision was what I would recommend to anyone about how you should choose a college but it
Self-Discovery and Self-Creation
42:23
shaped so many things in my life my best friends to this day are people who I met there my career would absolutely be
42:30
different if I had gone to another very similar school and very similar place but those things shape us and then what
42:38
do you want to guide the decisions and choices you make do you want to you know what's convenient or what's easy or what
42:43
everybody else is doing or do you want to be clear about these are my values this is my purpose this is who I want to
42:50
be and as you said that'll change and evolve uh that might shift as you go but
42:57
how do how do you be on that journey and then that's just the identity part then the other part is how am I
43:02
doing right like uh I I say I want to not be on Twitter but I'm on Twitter a
43:09
lot okay so I need to work on that right is that you know um I say I want to be
43:15
an intentive dad and I find myself excited when the kids go to bed um okay
43:21
I want to do better at that right um and really letting those moments guide us and shape us and some of that is about
43:27
masculinity that's just some of that's about being a dad that's some of that's just about being a good human so some of
43:33
it isn't even connected to manhood or masculinity but um you know for some
43:38
folks what's what's what's the Christian that you want to be um what's the husband that you want to be um what kind
43:46
of leader do you want to be in your company um what kind of neighbor you
43:51
want to be are you going to run for school board um is that something that aligns with your values or not and you
43:58
want to make contributions in a different way I I really like that that kind of
44:04
those two sides of that coin and kind of through that process first of all I think the I think the creating part is
44:10
that's Dynamic right that could be a daily thing a yearly thing a five year 10 year whatever um I I often use this
44:18
you know I I'm kind of I like these STK contrast kind of statements um but you
44:24
know there's a Christian s talks about how you know dear younger me it's not your fault and I hate that I hate that
44:31
line in that song because I use this phrase that hey wherever you happen to
44:37
be in your life there's a pretty good chance that it is your fault because it's it's the decision making that
44:44
you've made but I couple that with the good news if it's your fault you can actually change the outcome moving
44:52
forward right right you can't change what you did but you can change how you you move forward I love uh Jerry Colona
44:58
who's a a great coach talks about his his most famous question is how are you
45:05
complicit in the conditions you say you don't want and I love that word complicit
45:11
because it's it's not how are you responsible because that's sort of 100% on you but like what role have you
45:16
played and some of those some sometimes I'm really complicit and sometimes uh it's not
45:22
really me but but I've allowed it I've not stood up for myself challenged it and so and then I love that you say you
45:29
don't want because there's a lot of times I say I don't want something but it actually like I say I don't want to be mad at my kids but kind of feels good
45:36
to be right yeah oh okay I'm kind of enjoying
45:42
being right oh oh so maybe I'm perpetuating this
45:47
conflict because I like being right okay I got to let that go um so
45:53
yeah I love that and and if we can think back I love ber Brown talks about how we're all doing the best that we
46:00
can which I just find to be true and sometimes our best isn't very
46:06
good I used to I used to joke with my kids and I would say you know sometimes your best simply isn't good enough yeah
46:13
and that's okay what that means is whatever whatever activity you're trying to be best at if your best is not going
46:19
to give you what you need in that particular situation maybe maybe there's a different situation to put yourself in
46:26
right or some self-compassion like if you just find out your mom has breast cancer you might not be paying great
46:31
attention to this podcast conversation right yep that's okay and to understand
46:37
that or maybe you've got a cold or maybe you're well rested and you're on top of your game and you're vibing and you did
46:43
20 minutes of meditation you're totally dialed in and your best is really great great good that's awesome and I I find
Engaging Men and Creating Social Change
46:50
that great for my own Grace but then with others who irritate me just realizing
46:57
they're doing their best like no one wants to suck yeah no one's like pumped about that um but some people are just
47:05
having a really rough time maybe in their life maybe today maybe in this moment um maybe they're getting text
47:12
messages about some crisis or something like that or maybe they're worried or distracted maybe they're having
47:17
financial trouble and so they're they're not totally dialed in and paying attention um but I just love that no and
47:24
everyone's doing the best that they can that doesn't mean everyone's doing great right but it might be the best they can
47:30
today and that really just allows me to um have empathy and compassion without
47:37
giving up on people like if I assume that of you and we're not having a great moment I might say well I don't know
47:43
what's going on but I think Kevin's doing the best he can I'm still going to tell him this thing didn't land well
47:49
with me right right and you might not take that very well or you might be
47:54
really appreciative but but I'm just going to assume that you're doing the best you can today and maybe we'll do it
48:00
another time or right whatever that whatever that might be um but I I I I spent um the last two chapters of the
48:07
book are engaging men and creating social change so the last one is about
48:12
how do we change this culture we talked a little bit about outrage and social media how do we create cultural change so that the external expectations are
48:20
better and better people can get past them and get to that Liberation and authentic masculinity sooner um but the
48:26
chapter right before that is about engaging men and I really wrote that for my daughter's kindergarten teacher I
48:33
wrote that for coaches I wrote that for social workers um because a lot of people who are't helping who are helping
48:39
men are women um Elementary School teachers social workers therapists are
48:46
overwhelmingly women um and men who are in those roles don't often have good
48:51
examples of that yeah and they had a great kindergarten teacher she doesn't know I wrote it for her but um she was
48:57
awesome she's incredible and every year she gets 15 or so boys who've been
49:03
shaped by five years in this world who will go on to contribute to this world for another 95 is years and I believe
49:11
she loves them in her own very appropriate way and what would be helpful for her to understand connect
49:17
and help guide them through nine months of that process and she has incredible
49:22
training about how to do that with reading and creativity and math and
49:29
colors what would be helpful for her to navigate those boys through being a boy
49:35
or to help uh a psychologist who was trained by mostly women professors who had a cohort of women uh who did their a
49:42
lot of that and then you know has a case load of men who are really struggling
49:48
and then one psychologist said to me I thought everything went men's way and these guys are really struggling and I
49:54
don't know how to help them because I just assumed like everything would go their way and
50:00
they're guys they they get you know everything they have all this privilege which they do and everything goes their way but they're struggling because they
50:06
feel like they need to be the only provider and they have to protect their family from everything and they feel
50:11
helpless in these ways and and and they're worried about their cholesterol levels and you know um to help them
50:19
connect with empathy that's the connect with empathy and hold accountable
50:24
effectively and we have terrible models for accountability I mean accountability is really just passed off as blame shame
50:32
and dehumanization and that's not accountability that's that's a what ber
50:39
Brown would say it's a it's a discharging of your own hurt pain and
Navigating Change in Relationships
50:44
anguish so what is accountability supposed to look like then well couple distinctions so um
50:51
blame and accountability blame is discharging of your own pain that's when I take out my is on you like I can't
50:57
believe you Ed this word and you swore and you're ridiculous you're not you're disrespectful that's not that's just
51:03
blame accountability is it really hurt my feelings when so accountability is vulnerable it
51:12
hurt my feelings or I'm I feel really disappointed um I also love berne's distinguishing between um guilt and
51:19
shame so guilt is I've done or said something I regret
51:26
shame is I'm a bad person so guilt is I
51:31
made a mistake shame is I'm a mistake that just lands really
51:37
differently and so if we can focus our accountability not on the person but on what they did or said we
51:44
have a much better chance of them learning being open if you say Keith uh
51:49
I can't believe you said that thing in a meeting I go oh well let me understand I
51:54
would love to no more and the more guilt I feel about that o I don't want to say that again the less likely I am to do it
52:00
again but if you say what is wrong with
52:06
you it's not about what I said in the meaning you're saying I'm broken I'm wrong I'm bad I'm immoral and I I'm not
52:14
open to your feedback because I want to defend that I'm a good person so I get defensive I'm not open I'm not listening
52:21
I'm Walling it off so in the book I talk about how do we accept accountability right so when you say hey
52:28
can I talk about that meeting how do I go okay I'm not a bad person but maybe Kevin has something I can learn from
52:33
here right so how do we accept accountability but then how do we offer it right so let's say um I don't say
52:41
what's wrong with you you're so gross and instead I say hey you know in that
52:46
meeting I heard you talk over Maxine three different times how can I help you not do that in future meetings well then
52:54
you go oh okay well I hadn't even noticed uh I really like Maxine uh okay
53:00
maybe maybe you give me a little nudge or I I don't know what we come up with but but when we I think accountability
53:07
goes wrong when we we don't allow for the possibility
53:13
that the other person could grow change or be different and then we're just sorting which is great at Hogwarts putting you
53:20
into a different house but it doesn't lead to growth learning and change and so how do we do accountability in a way
53:26
that leads to growth learning and change for you for me for the world for my
53:31
daughter's middle school and if we just say h this place
53:37
sucks this guy sucks you suck I
53:42
suck then that just leads to like regression and not openness and so how
53:47
do we say I mess up all the time and some ways I'm aware of it and
53:53
I'm working on it and if you see ways that I'm messing up that I'm not aware of I would really appreciate that
54:00
because then I can you know I had no idea I interrupted Maxi I had no clue I'm so oh help me right and so I think
54:09
that that possibility for growth learning and change is is so critical there's a great um Valerie cower who's a
54:16
seek activist and did a lot of work after 911 uh has a new book called revolutionary love and she said I spent
54:22
the first 20 years organizing around hate I'm going to spend the next 20 organizing around
54:28
love and that's a pretty radical shift yeah that is a big shift for sure yeah
54:34
one of the challenges I think that we have at least in my my own situation is I've been married to my wife for 28
54:40
years like I said it's it's it's it's fraking amazing getting better better all the time is what I hear it is it is
54:47
y and um however you know I've not you know I'm continuing to grow and I feel
54:52
like that my growth is kind of accelerating the last the last couple years especially this podcast has
54:58
actually made me a better listener made me more open not necessarily changing who I am my ethics and morals and you
55:05
know the essential understanding of the world but we had a discuss you know we
55:10
often have these discussions that would be like well you always do these things you know it's
55:16
like this is because it it became some so ingrained in my bad behavior whether
Accountability and Growth
55:22
I'm a poor listener or I talk over her which is tends to be one of my one of my
55:27
bad habits um I I'm I'm impatient so that makes me a bad listener but I'm
55:34
working and I like to solve the problem and fix it do that too me too yeah me too y um but that's the so trying to and
55:43
and we had the discussion the other day I'm like hey you got to give me some credit for the growth that I'm having now and because you want to it's easy to
55:51
say this is who you are and so like that's that becomes a challenge to deal with when you're dealing with someone
55:57
that you've been married to or been with together or you know children whatever I think it's it's critical uh an important
56:04
person I won't say who to protect him but um was divorced and remarried and I
56:11
said you know what's what' you learn and he said my first marriage we grew apart
56:16
MH my second marriage we're growing together and I think about that all the
56:23
time as someone who who loves to learn and loves to grow and loves to change
56:28
how do I make sure we're not doing that on opposite trajectories but we're doing that
56:33
together in unison and I think saying I I think we don't have enough conversations about how we're
56:40
changing right and I think when when one person is growing both people can resent
56:45
it a person who's really growing and changing could resent like well keep up with me like be on this journey with me
56:52
like why aren't you also you know listening to cool podcast like this and reading these books and doing this and
56:57
doing a better morning routine but the person who's not growing is like hey we had a deal you're not the
57:04
same person and I resent that you're changing and so I think being more open
57:12
in our relationships about here's how I'm growing I mean this is the beauty of of being a coach right you get backstage
57:19
past to how people are changing constantly um you know I talk with my coaching clients about every two
57:26
weeks and they're different humans yeah from two weeks to two weeks right and um
57:33
but we assume the people around us are the same people they've always been right my friend I've known for 20 years
57:38
I'm you're I pretty much interact with him the same way I knew him five years ago right he's a completely different
57:44
person I'm just not up to speed on all of the details of that some of that's visible right A change in relationship a
57:50
change in job you move to a new location um you start a meditation practice you get fit you you gain weight whatever
57:56
some of that we can see but but a lot of that change is just like I no longer think of the world in this
58:03
way and how would anyone know that and how do we have conversations about one
58:08
of my favorite questions well my favorite question is Kevin who are you
58:15
becoming because it's not who are you which is static right but who are you becoming or
58:23
who are who are you on the cusp of becoming well I I think I might be on the cusp of becoming someone
58:30
who meditates or I I think I might be becoming Buddhist or I think I might
58:36
becoming um someone who plays the guitar or I might be becoming really
58:42
good at editing videos or whatever the case might be um but but having those
58:48
conversations and I think you know the the the old adage is communication is key to any relationship and I think
58:53
that's that's totally true but how do we have the conversations about you know how are you different
58:58
from who I married 28 years ago how are you different from uh before we had kids MH how are
59:06
you different from before you left that job and started this new one how are you different since you
59:12
committed to this exercise routine how is it shaping you and oh my self-discipline I
59:19
I used to fear it now I love it and now I want more things that I can try and be discipline because it's just it's fun
59:26
for me to wrestle and struggle and do things um so I think sharing the journey
59:31
we don't have to grow and learn in the same ways but be on the similar paths and sometimes other people are growing in ways that we don't give them credit
59:38
for like wow I had no idea you've been working really hard at that for the past three months like I just didn't know um
59:45
but that's a great it's it's kind of a fun path to intimacy right yeah it's I mean and honestly it's one of the best
59:51
things about having the kind of relationship cuz we grew up together we got married at 21 and 22 which people be
59:56
man that's super young especially now right but like we totally grew up together and we've grown up together
1:00:03
throughout every stage and and it's crazy whether it's our intimate relationship our communication or our
1:00:10
dating now with each other and all of these things like it changes all the time and you and yeah I don't think much
1:00:17
people I don't think people give credit to the ability to have that change um in a relationship that lasts for four 50 60
1:00:25
years yeah and or the joy that that can come with that and you know I'm not shaming anybody that has been through a
1:00:32
divorce and it didn't work out or whatever but but yeah it's it's freaking awesome I mean we've done counseling
1:00:38
five or six times we call it tuneups you know as we go through different phases and we've had like some serious
1:00:45
lifechanging epiphanies through some of those and and um but yeah that growth
1:00:51
together is really what is what brings that closeness together together and isn't it fun oh
1:00:57
yeah right and I think I think just acknowledging that that people in relationships change I remember I
1:01:04
remember having our first kid and changing a diaper and being like well this is my life now yeah okay and then
1:01:13
four years later I was changing my last diaper and I was sad I was like I we're done with this I
1:01:21
thought this was my life and it was such a great reminder of the impermanence of Parenthood right now I'm at the
1:01:28
shuttling them to and from Sports practices and games stage of Parenthood yeah um I was at the stage where you had
Embracing Impermanence
1:01:34
to watch them every minute um this you know and and and soon I'll be at the
1:01:39
stage where they're driving themselves around and I won't like that better um then they'll be to college and then they
1:01:44
have their own life right and and that impermanence I think is more visible um to parents of children but
1:01:52
our relationships with our partners have the same same impermanence MH our
1:01:57
relationship with our parents has the same impermanence my my dad is a very different person than he was five years
1:02:03
ago my grandfather was trying to figure out who he was at 74 um our close friendships so I and I
1:02:10
think when we just recognize that everyone is doing the best that they can
1:02:15
and a work in progress um people become more interesting you know I I love the
1:02:21
the Buddhist notion of beginner's mind let's have this conversation as though we've never had it before M um and and
1:02:29
how do how do you talk to a partner of 28 years as though you don't know what
1:02:34
she thinks about X or you don't know what she's going to say like my partner comes home and I say
1:02:41
how is your day and I pretty much know what she's gonna say and then I'm not really listening right how could I ask
1:02:48
that question and really bring this beginner's mind like what if I pretended I had no clue what's going to come out
1:02:54
of out of her mouth I would really dial in I would really pay what if I had no idea what her job was or how her
1:03:00
co-workers are irritating her or how she responds or what she thinks about oh that's intimacy listening to someone as
1:03:07
though you have no idea is genuine curiosity and boy when you can do that
1:03:13
it's transformative yeah it's um it's a lot of fun and we um our kids both left home
1:03:20
at 17 they were homeschooled so they've been gone for five or six years and you know I hear people lament about
1:03:27
their kids going off and all that I mean empty nesting is awesome just tell you
1:03:33
right now I mean you know we love our kids we love it when they come home but we also love this stage of our you know
1:03:39
kind of freedom and and you know all of that too well I think that's because you've embraced this impermanence idea
1:03:44
like this is what we're doing this is this is our parenting thing now and and I'm always trying to do this stage with
1:03:51
everything I got so when it's done I'm ready to let it go and not missing it I used to work at in colleges and
1:03:56
universities and we would have parents who would come for orientation and we would have smaller
1:04:02
groups who have parents who would come to drop their kids off for sports before everybody else did so it a smaller group have some conversations and every time
1:04:10
there would be say 25 parents and over here would be this
1:04:16
couple and they'd be like this is our last one can you help us what are we going to
1:04:24
do do we're we're we're going to be alone and over here was a couple this is
1:04:31
our last one yeah we can't wait we're so excited we're going to do new things we're going to plant a garden we're
1:04:37
going to travel and they were having the same experience but their perspective on it was really different yeah and that
1:04:44
was so stunning to me because I saw it so often and both of their experiences are real but it's it's a great example
1:04:51
of it's not what you experience but how how you respond how you react how you make meaning of it how you connect with
1:04:57
it can really shape your experience they were seeing this as a tremendous loss and an end and they were seeing this as
1:05:05
wow curiosity excitement what's this going to look like now we get to have a different relationship with our kids
1:05:11
which I think is really great yeah and a lot of times that that that fear is because you you may or may not have done
1:05:17
all the work you needed to do to make sure that that that the person you're standing next to that part of the
1:05:23
relationship is enough that that you know we got to hang out with each other now yeah I don't even know like talking
1:05:29
about the kids all the time I've called this person mom for the last 20 years even though she's my wife you know
1:05:35
whatever so yeah for sure but I think just opening ourselves up to and this is
1:05:40
why I love this notion of becoming um we talked about it in terms of masculinity but like constantly asking myself who am
1:05:47
I what am I doing how's that align how does that not not as a failure but
1:05:53
noticing that misalignment that in congruence that dissonance as that's
1:05:58
where learning is that's where my growth is O where is it showing up how do I say this or see myself as this and I'm not
1:06:05
quite doing that all right well that's where I can grow that's where I can learn that's where I can shift
1:06:11
um yeah it's really exciting and and I think as a parent I'm trying
1:06:17
to do the best I can at this stage and I'm trying to savor it as best I can so
1:06:25
that when the next one comes I'm like okay I I really I really change the
1:06:30
out of those diapers like I I did it I gave it all I had I'm good I'm ready to
1:06:36
now have a kid who can tell me that they're hungry and that they love me
1:06:42
that's exciting right and now I've got a kid who can tell me about difficulties
1:06:47
with friends now I've got kids who want to talk about boxing out and
1:06:55
all of these other things which is also super fun but a different stage in the process yeah they don't snuggle me like
1:07:01
they used to but ask for basketball tips and that's different yeah those relationships change in a in a really
1:07:07
cool way um you know that the I love the adult friendship type relationship that
1:07:13
I have with my girls now and and it's uh it's totally different um I get smarter
1:07:18
every year surprisingly but yeah yeah so as as they
1:07:24
learn more so do I evidently my uh my perspective wasn't as bad as what they
1:07:30
thought I think back you know things I the the lack of Grace I gave my parents
1:07:35
when I was 15 just like sorry yeah my
1:07:42
bad yeah our Our Girls both would be like I'm really sorry for how I acted
1:07:47
when I was 14 and 15 and you know that that tends to be that tends to be the challenging thing but but I and I I
1:07:54
think that's important because uh they probably said or did horrible things to you and to come back now 15 or 10 years
1:08:01
later and say I'm sorry about that yeah even if you don't even
1:08:07
remember right still is a form of repair right there's a conflict and and and how
1:08:13
do we bring that sense of repair to our relationships I was just thinking about this with a friend who I just treated
1:08:19
really poorly in a particular situation just saying you know hey I was not in a good place then I'm really sorry I
1:08:25
wasn't very understanding or I was judgmental of you I I see it differently
1:08:30
now right um and that repair I think is great in the moment it's great two weeks
1:08:36
later it's great 10 years later just a little acknowledgement makes a big difference yeah it's never never too
1:08:41
late to kind of get those repaired well I want to be um I want to be uh cognizant of your time respect of your
1:08:48
time can you give us and this will be a loaded question kind of if I'm a guy kind of wrestling with some of the stuff
1:08:54
the idea of authentic masculinity can you kind of give me one you know one easy strategy to kind of begin this
1:09:01
journey on a lot of these podcasts I always like to get my guest to kind of say okay well and I use the phrase you
1:09:06
know start from where you're at this is this is where you are this is where you're starting kind of that jumping off
Empty Nesting and Relationship Growth
1:09:12
point for taking this journey yeah I started this research thinking we needed
1:09:17
to teach men a different way of being a man and the research taught me we don't
1:09:23
we need give them permission to stop being who they feel they have to be and permission to be who they really are mhm
1:09:30
so if if someone's listening and that's their question what I would say is I
1:09:36
give you permission to stop being who you feel you're supposed to be and I give you permission to figure
1:09:44
out and be who you really are
1:09:49
and enjoy that for the rest of your your life don't make it icky homework make it
1:09:57
a delight and it's going to change and it's going to shift
1:10:02
and um that's a delightful thing and you know as coaches we often say you know
1:10:09
don't should on yourself and shoulds are always external expectations and sometimes we should
1:10:15
things that are really ours right like oh I should go to my kids basketball
1:10:21
game I want to yeah I really do but if I think about it as I
1:10:27
should oh it's scheduled I've got to go she wants me there um I don't go to those games for her yeah I actually go
1:10:35
because of me so sometimes it's just a shift in perspective and I think we can bring that to everything so what are the
1:10:40
external expectations you feel as a man as a Christian as a CEO uh as a father as a brother what are
1:10:49
the expectations how do you let go of those external expectations and figure out how do you want to do this
1:10:54
right how do you want to parent a three-year-old how do you want to lead your next staff meeting um what's
1:10:59
genuine and authentic for you if you can figure that out and then do that more often uh life gets magical that's
1:11:06
awesome and how do we find more about you and Order the book and yeah uh find more about me Keith edwards.com super
1:11:14
easy the book you can find there it's everywhere audible Amazon Bookshop um
1:11:19
wherever you might want to get your books um the best way to stay connect Ed with me is I have a newsletter called
1:11:25
sharing fire that I send out every two weeks it's 100% free no pitches no sales
1:11:31
No Nonsense I just share my latest thinking two or three things that I'm learning which are podcasts or things
1:11:37
like this things I'm doing and then things that inspire me which is usually music or a great TV show um I'm
1:11:44
currently recommending drops of God which is a great series on Apple um
1:11:49
three different languages about wine and family and also sorts of things super intense and super fun so keith.com is
Permission to Be Authentic
1:11:57
the best place to find me the book you can find there and anywhere and if you want to connect with me in an ongoing way um sharing fire is a way to do that
1:12:04
you can find that so easily on my website just sign up there awesome I think I need to go sign up for that then
1:12:09
for sure yeah thanks Keith I appreciate your time man yeah great to talk with you Kevin yeah have a great day yep if
1:12:17
you're looking to really maximize your life and become the man you were made to be head over to maxed out man .c and get
1:12:25
your journey started today
